Landscape lighting transformer and wiring

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis all you really need to do is read the instructions.

IMO if the instructions for an outdoor lighting system say nothing about being used inside the assumption should be it's not OK for inside.

Now that surprises me, esp. since the thinking around here is if the NEC does not forbid it then it is okay. Not consistent. I bet the instructions for many exterior wall sconces don't say suitable for indoor either.

 

[iwire]

Now that surprises me, esp. since the thinking around here is if the NEC does not forbid it then it is okay. Not consistent.

Dennis, think about my examples.

How many products list all the places they can not be used?

Do duplex receptacles say 'not for use within 5' of a pool?

Does that mean you can?

I bet the instructions for many exterior wall sconces don't say suitable for indoor either

I bet your right and I also bet many are not suitable for indoor use.

Also you may want to consider 411.4(A), a 600 watt (or two x 300 watt) supply is not class II and would have to be extended through the wall of home in a Chapter 3 wiring method.

I am not trying to give you a hard time but you seem fully dug in on the 'we have always done it that way' clause.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am not trying to give you a hard time but you seem fully dug in on the 'we have always done it that way' clause.

I am not taking what you are saying as giving me a hard time. Not yet anyway.:smile:

I am not dug in on the "we've always done it that way. On the contrary I have done as many outside as I have inside and not that many of either. I just am looking for proof that it is not okay. What you and I think doesn't matter. I may very well be wrong and as Pierre has stated I may be and I will change my ways. I just don't see why this info is not more readily available. I am playing more devils advocate than anything.

Honestly, I never gave it a second thought before today. I consider myself halfway intelligent and probably on top of things as least as much and probably more than the average EC. The info should not be this difficult to get-- that's all I mean by this.

 

[iwire]

I am not taking what you are saying as giving me a hard time. Not yet anyway.:smile:

Cool

I consider myself halfway intelligent and probably on top of things as least as much and probably more than the average EC.

I agree.

I do most of my best thinking while on the road to and from work, perhaps try the same thing on this issue in the next few days.

 

[vjmac887]

LV cable

LV cable

What if we looked at it this way. Would you use the landscape lighting cable for 12 volt interior lights? Of course not. You would use NM or MC. I will do some research and show you a cable that works.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What if we looked at it this way. Would you use the landscape lighting cable for 12 volt interior lights? Of course not. You would use NM or MC. I will do some research and show you a cable that works.

No I would not use landscape light but I would use a low voltage cable not NM or mc unless it was concealed.

 

[vjmac887]

q-tran wire

q-tran wire

Standard Landscape lighting cable is not rated for 90 degrees, that is why you may not use indoors. I incorrectly stated that cable has to be rated for 600 volts indoors. Check out the website for q-tran wire. It has the correct ratings.

http://www.q-tran.com/QWIRE.html

This cable is OK for indoor and outdoor use.

 

[btruppel]

All this info I have been getting is very helpful and interesting but when the comment was made about the insulation on low volt cable being very toxic I have to agree with another member that said there are many things in a home that when burned are toxic and I think that might be illrelivent to the situation. I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here but what other reason than the manufacturer stating "for outdoor use only" would make me believe you can't run this cable indoors. If you have under cabinet lighting you can use a low volt cable to run for these, now granted this isnt exactly the same situation but you get the basic idea.

 

[groundrod10]

Isolation Transformer

Isolation Transformer

With respect to the transformer being an isolation transformer is there any requirement for it to be shielded?

 

[hbiss]

Pierre that picture is fine but that does not let us know it is not code compliant. I would be interested in some documentation if you have. I will check my cables also and call the manufacturers.

Article 725 is as far as you have to look. I don't know why this is a problem.

If the transformer is not labeled or it says Class 1, the wiring inside the structure must be Class 1 in accordance with Chapter 3. This means Romex or other usual method. Landscape wiring in pipe is NOT a Class 1 method.

If the transformer is Class 3, any associated indoor wiring MUST be listed CL3. If the transformer is Class 2, any associated indoor wiring MUST be listed CL3 or CL2.

Unless the landscape wiring is 600V or CL2 or CL3 listed (as the case requires) IT CANNOT BE USED INDOORS.

-Hal

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Hal,

If the transformer is Class 3, any associated indoor wiring MUST be listed CL3. If the transformer is Class 2, any associated indoor wiring MUST be listed CL3 or CL2.

There is no rule that says you can't use Chapter 3 wiring methods for Class 2 and 3 circuits.

 

[hbiss]

You are absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that a Class 1 wiring method couldn't be used in place of CL3 or CL2.

The hirarchy is in that order- Class 1>CL3>CL2. So Class 1 can be substituted for everything below it, CL3 can be substituted for CL2.

-Hal

 

[Dennis Alwon]

when the comment was made about the insulation on low volt cable being very toxic I have to agree with another member that said there are many things in a home that when burned are toxic and I think that might be illrelivent to the situation.

Here's the skinny on the situation. I called UL. UL only tests the product for outdoor use unless the manufacturer specifically asks for it to be tested for indoor use. Unfortunately there is no info on it being tested for indoor use.

Now, you may ask why it is not suitable for indoor and the fact is it may very well be but no one has tested it for that use. When UL tests wire for indoor use one factor they test for is what they call the "vertical flame rating". Thus romex going up the wall, if ignited, will only burn in the spot where the fire is. If it did not have a vertical flame rating it could act like a wick where the flame would travel up the wire. Landscape wire does not have this rating.

So-- I would say no you cannot use outdoor landscape wire indoors unless it has been tested for it. It has nothing to do with not being rated for 600 volts.

Standard Landscape lighting cable is not rated for 90 degrees, that is why you may not use indoors. I incorrectly stated that cable has to be rated for 600 volts indoors. Check out the website for q-tran wire. It has the correct ratings.

Are you sure about this???:-? Do you mean to say that I cannot run TW wire indoors???

http://www.q-tran.com/QWIRE.html
This cable is OK for indoor and outdoor use.

Yes but this cable is basically a stranded uf cable.

 

[hbiss]

So-- I would say no you cannot use outdoor landscape wire indoors unless it has been tested for it.

I think you are missing the point here. The NEC specifically indicates what cables may be used within a structure. The fact that a cable may or may not be tested for a particular use is not our concern. Our only concern is that whatever we use is marked as listed for the use intended.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

This cable is OK for indoor and outdoor use... Yes but this cable is basically a stranded uf cable.

EXACTLY. Look at the specs. This is UF-B listed, it is suitable for Class 1 wiring.


Part Number: QW-14/2
Description: 14 AWG 2/C Stranded UF-B Cable
Construction: This cable consists of two tinned copper insulated conductors
laid parallel with an overall jacket
Approvals: UL Standard 493
Application: Underground Feeder Cable for Direct Burial Applications

-Hal

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So-- I would say no you cannot use outdoor landscape wire indoors unless it has been tested for it.

I think you are missing the point here. The NEC specifically indicates what cables may be used within a structure. The fact that a cable may or may not be tested for a particular use is not our concern. Our only concern is that whatever we use is marked as listed for the use intended.

-Hal

The nec does not, as far as I can tell, specifically indicate every cable that can be used indoors.

 

[quogueelectric]

So there is no code issue with using landscape cable inside a home to run from trans to outside fixtures?All the wiring would be run through seperate drilled holes in the joists and there would be about 50' inside before it exits the house. And to clear up any confussion, the only reason the trans are inside is because there is no place to mount the trans outside that wouldn't be seen from the back patio and I am not using those junk trans form Home Depot. We have all Kichler lighting and Kichler trans for this project and Kichlers trans are not small in size($). These trans can be mounted inside according to Kichler as long as the unit has an indoor mounting plate.

Kichler makes some nice lights

 

[quogueelectric]

............

 

[iwire]

The nec does not, as far as I can tell, specifically indicate every cable that can be used indoors.

Actually I think they do.

Seeing as we are talking landscape lighting Take a look at 725.130(B) and725.154.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Actually I think they do.

Seeing as we are talking landscape lighting Take a look at 725.130(B) and725.154.

Yes this is so but the response was that every cable allowed in a structure is defined by the NEC. The same type of statement was made about 60C and 90C that was inaccurate.

I totally agree that landscape lighting is not allowed inside. I thought I pretty much said that in my post about UL.

I believe 725.179 says it all however, I still think there should be better marking on the product. I now know better and have rarely wired outdoor transformers to the indoors. I will "change my evil ways, baby".