Law about live work

[Brady Electric]

Law about live work

Is this to say you've never been zapped? It only takes a few milliamps and some bad luck to stop a heart.

Yes I have been shocked, who hasn't? I have never been hurt bad just shocked a little. I have seen others get hurt and they were being careless. I once told an electrician to shut the power off while working with 440 and he didn't and got burned. Don't misunderstand me I said: "I shut the power off when possible but sometimes you just can't".
I also don't believe I haven't gotten hurt by accident or just been lucky. I have become a good electrician and know my trade. I don't take unnecessary chances but I do what I have to do to get the job done and its threw experience (not luck) that I can do that.
As in any job you need to become a professional. If we as "electricians" can't work on live power just who can?
This is all I am ever going to say about this subject but I think most of us have and do work on live circuits but won't admit it. I am a good electrician who is honest and tells it like it is. Also I never suggest anyone working with me work on live circuits. Sometimes troubleshooting you can not fine the problem if the circuit is turned off. If you try using continuity you sometimes get false reading. Power is to be respected and you must proceed with caution and when the job and day is done remember you are an "ELECTRICIAN".
That's all folks, Semper Fi and have a GREAT day

 

[iwire]

Yes I have been shocked,

So you have been lucky as any of those shocks could have killed you.

I also don't believe I haven't gotten hurt by accident or just been lucky. I have become a good electrician and know my trade. I don't take unnecessary chances but I do what I have to do to get the job done and its threw experience (not luck) that I can do that.

Now that really bothers me.

The basic message there is that any electrician who has gotten hurt was simply not good enough.

As in any job you need to become a professional. If we as "electricians" can't work on live power just who can?

Why should anyone have to?

Name a few situation where the power could really not be shut down.

For troubleshooting....well that is allowed as there is no choice.

But beyond that I bet 99% of the live work could be done during a shut down.

I think most of us have and do work on live circuits but won't admit it.

I admit it, I also used to drive very fast on pubic roads but we grow and realize the benefits are outweighed by the risks.

Sometimes troubleshooting you can not fine the problem if the circuit is turned off.

I agree.

It is allowed, and in a typical dwelling unit all the PPE you might need are safety glasses and some light weight gloves.

you must proceed with caution and when the job and day is done remember you are an "ELECTRICIAN".

Yes I am an electrician, I think a pretty good one, I am proud to be one.....but I am a Father and Husband before I am an electrician.

I know we are all going to do what we want but I hope I can at least make some think about it the next time they have to make the choice. :smile:

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Brady
No one said that someone who turns off the power is not professional. It is ignorance (ignorance is not stupidity...if you are not sure what it really means, look it up in Websters) that really sets us apart from being great at what we do and just being good. Professionals don't just follow some of the rules, they try to follow all of the rules.

I never said there are not reasons for working energized circuits. I wonder, do you own a pair of:
Safety googles
Face shield
Insulated gloves - 0, 00 etc...
What is the material of the clothing you wear to work
Insulated tools
Ear protection
Proper meters

I think you get my drift.

When one gets up in the morning it should be a relatively easy habit to make sure these items are in the vehicle you take to work.

Cost is not prohibitive. Skip lunch once a week and you will be able to purchase most of these items in less than a year.

 

[M. D.]

Perhaps Brady has been trained and does have the propper equipment ,... He does not write as if he does, and I too am offended by the attitude I preceive in some of the comments he has made ,....and wether he recognizes it or not he has been lucky.

The Dangers of Arc Flash Incidents

Regulations require safety programs and hazard analysist o address expensive and potentially deadly occurrences.
By Linda K. Fischer, Associate Editor


"........Between five and 10 times a day, an arc flash explosion occurs in electric equipment somewhere in the United States that sends a burn victim to a special burn center, according to statistics compiled by CapSchell, Inc., a Chicago-based research and consulting firm that specializes in preventing workplace injuries and deaths.

That number does not include cases sent to regular hospitals and clinics, or unreported cases and ?near misses,? estimated to be many times that number. There are one or two deaths a day from these multi-trauma events, noted Dr. Mary Capelli-Schellpfeffer, principal investigator.
The costs of these incidents are staggering. According to a 1999 Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) study cited by CapSchell, a utility company?s total spending estimate for electrical incidents over a two-year period was $15.75 million per case when related indirect costs were considered along with the direct expenses. One manufacturer, as reported by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), reported it has experienced an average of 2.2 arc flash injuries per year over the past 10 years. ".....

I'm not sure ,but I don't think
"I once told an electrician to shut the power off while working with 440 and he didn't and got burned."
qualifies as a safety program ....Good luck Brady , it sounds like you'll need it.

 

[Brady Electric]

Law about live work

I-Wire Thanks for the input.
I have only been on this form for about one year and as you can see only respond to subjects that interest me an that I think I can help someone out.
By being a new guy here I have always admired the way you and Dennis and others that were here before me. After all I think about four or five of you guys make this form.
Having said that I am 58 years old and have been doing electrical work since I got out of the Marines in 1972. I had a good boss who taught me well on the job training and as I did in the Marines I applied myself and learned what he did. We always worked on circuits hot when necessary.
I ALWAYS HAVE SAID SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO WORK ON LIVE CIRCUITS AND THAT I TURN OFF CIRCUITS WHEN POSSIBLE. I BELIEVE IT IS NOT AGANIST THE LAW FOR ELECTRICIANS TO WORK ON LIVE CIRCUITS.(There again why are we electricians, and if not us who is allowed to work on live circuits?)
DON'T READ BETWEEN THE LINES AND PICK OUT WHAT YOU WANT TO READ WHAT I SAY AND DON'T ADD ANYTHING OR TAKE AWAY.
Allot of electricians have sent me private messages with there opinions because they don't won't to be eaten up on this form.

I am not an expert on the rules I am just a self employed electrician just doing my job.
We are not here to bash anyone just help others understand and learn about real situations with everyday problems.
I didn't say you weren't a good electrician, I just said I am a professional electrician and know my trade not that I am the only one qualified to do the work.
EVERYONE SHOULD ALWAYS SHUT POWER OFF WHEN THEY CAN!!
I am a husband and father first also and I was when I went to Viet Nam where everything was working with live ammo. Wish I could have stood up and said (Hey turn off your weapons and lets talk about this).
In other words we do the best we can in every situation not just in our everyday jobs.
The last time I will respond to this subject.
We are not here to argue or bash each other.
But remember we are ELECTRICIANS and if WE can't work on live circuits just WHO can?
Semper Fi. Buddy

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

All jobs have some risk.Cops can be shot (we had one killed just last week),truck drivers can easily get into wreck,taxi driver could get shot for money,etc

When we take this job we know the risk.Keep things safe as we can without it slowing us down so bad that we get fired.If i refused to ever do anything live i likely would be looking for a job.I am all for shuting things off when it's within reason

 

[Brady Electric]

Law about live work

Sorry I didn't preread my previous responce I was a little hot headed and wanted to just get it out there.
But while I was respondiing I had two more responces to what I said.
Seems to me that you two weren't listening and you need to read all threads where I talked about having safety equiptnment.
I am sorry some of you don't understand the way I describe doing work. It is hard to put on paper what you mean sometimes.
I hope that what I say helps at least some of you.
Lets take off the gloves and just say possitive things to help each other, after all that what it all about.

 

[Brady Electric]

Law about live work

All jobs have some risk.Cops can be shot (we had one killed just last week),truck drivers can easily get into wreck,taxi driver could get shot for money,etc

When we take this job we know the risk.Keep things safe as we can without it slowing us down so bad that we get fired.If i refused to ever do anything live i likely would be looking for a job.I am all for shuting things off when it's within reason

Thanks Jim, couldn't say it better myself. Semper Fi

 

[M. D.]

When we take this job we know the risk.Keep things safe as we can without it slowing us down so bad that we get fired.

This is an example of just what I hope will change. It is part of the job to work safe ,.. climb down the ladder Jim ,.. it could save your life.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

All jobs have some risk.Cops can be shot (we had one killed just last week),truck drivers can easily get into wreck,taxi driver could get shot for money,etc

When we take this job we know the risk.Keep things safe as we can without it slowing us down so bad that we get fired.If i refused to ever do anything live i likely would be looking for a job.I am all for shuting things off when it's within reason

I just wanted to say that I agree with the statements that have been thrown out there that If everyone stood up to unsafe conditions than the risk associated with our jobs would be minimized. By the way, being scared of loosing your job is not a good reason to work in an unsafe enviroment.

I remember working at an airline, our inspectors had to inspect our turbo prop engines for liquid leaks while running. The engine manual CLEARLY spells out a safety harness that has to be worn during this inspection (20-30 inches from a moving propeller). A new inspector refused to do it without the harness (which we didn't have) and he was sent home. We all thought he was fired. A week later he was back. He was reinstated with reinbursed pay and guess what we had a harness! Also we all had to sign a paper saying we would use the harness. It turns out he made a call to OSHA and things happened.

My point is employers have insisted workers work in unsafe ways for hundreds of years. Now that the laws are in our favor, why not insist they be followed? I just can't accept that the 300-400 electricians who die every year (stat from memory only) just happen to be poor electricians that haven't "mastered the animal".

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It would be great if it was a followed law everywhere.What would happen here is they would not fire you for saying no to working live but as most know they can simply say we no longer need your help and need not give reason.I am trying to be carefull as i retire in 2 years hopefully even sooner

 

[Rockyd]

For all those who refuse to take a stand for life, and lives of others, who think taking risks will be financially rewarded, can I ask - at what cost?

I always liked the saying - " If you've never done anything wrong, you've never done anything at all". That said, the most we can normally do is to control the magnitude of our errors. Like working live. Why cut corners, and endanger the whole industry for your bravado ego? Can't buy a new life when you screw up, and it happens to be bad.

When we do Lock out, Tag out (LOTO) It's not strictly electrical, energy with lethal force comes in many forms, -

Did you secure HP air systems?

Did you check process fluids to what ever it is your working on?

Did you "sniff" an will you be monitoring area for hazardous gas (s), such as Hydrogen Sulfide, Clorine, or Phosgene?

Did you check ALL circuitry to be sure it is locked out, or blanketed?

Everyone on project wants to go home at the end of the day, let's do everything we can, to make sure they can.

Look at the job site I'm at -

Worker Dead in Mishap at Las Vegas Strip Resort Construction Site

Posted: 12:07 PM Aug 10, 2007
Last Updated: 12:07 PM Aug 10, 2007



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

State safety authorities on Friday were investigating the death of a 65-year-old worker who was killed in a mishap at a Las Vegas Strip resort construction site.

Harvey Englander of Las Vegas died shortly after 6 p.m. Thursday when a heavy counterweight hit him while he was performing maintenance on a construction lift system at one of several towers
at the MGM Mirage Inc. CityCenter project, officials said.

Englander was struck by the counterweight system as he was servicing the temporary elevator, Clark County fire spokesman Scott
Allison said.

Stephen Coffield, acting chief of the Nevada Occupational Safety and Health Enforcement office in Las Vegas, said an investigation could take several weeks.

Work resumed late Thursday at CityCenter project, where officials say some 3,600 workers are engaged in round-the-clock construction of a $7.4 billion mixed-use hotel, casino, condominium and retail project on 66 acres.

It was the third death at the CityCenter construction site this year.

In February, two construction workers were crushed to death and two other men were injured when a pair of 3,000-pound walls toppled at the site between the Bellagio and Monte Carlo hotel-casinos.

Yvette Monet, a spokeswoman for MGM Mirage, expressed confidence
in Perini Building Co., the firm hired to build the project. The resort is scheduled to open in 2009.

The death was the second in a week at separate Las Vegas Strip casino construction sites.

A worker died after he and two other men fell Aug. 2 from a 30-foot wall at the site of the Fontainebleau Resort construction project.

OSHA is investigating that death, along with the collapse Monday of a section of a multistory parking garage at the Fontainebleau site. No one was hurt in that mishap.

The $2.8 billion Fontainebleau project, by privately held developer Fontainebleau Resorts LLC, is due to open in late 2009 with 3,889 rooms, a casino, hotel, condominium and spa.


From other articles about what happened -

Officials say Englander never turned off this manlift while he was greasing it, but it was the counterweight system that came down on top of him.

*****​

Englander had about three decades in the construction business, and was wearing all of the proper safety equipment when he died.

*****​

Body parts were recovered from more than one floor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your job is worth dying for, please don't bother to show up at my job site.

 

[inspector23]

It would be great if it was a followed law everywhere.What would happen here is they would not fire you for saying no to working live but as most know they can simply say we no longer need your help and need not give reason.I am trying to be carefull as i retire in 2 years hopefully even sooner

Everyone justifies their actions. The 40 year old electrician says he cannot afford to take a stance because he has bills and kids in school. The new electrician says he cannot afford to take a stance because he is just getting started and can't "make waves" for fear of getting fired.

It's easier said than done. It's hard to take a stance sometimes. It's not always popular with the boss. Sometimes push comes to shove and you have to make a decision, then live with it, regardless of your present circumstances. Ask any inspector worth his salt.:smile:

You have to pick your battles. But I can think of few battles more worthy of a strong stance or with more permanent consequences as a result of your stance.

 

[tom baker]

Check out NFPA 70E. It's the law. Good stuff in that book about when and how live work can be done. PPE, clothing, procedures... it's all there and IMO, as important as the NEC, maybe more so.

Its only the law if your state is under the jurisdiction of OSHA. Some states, such as Washington, are not, but it would still apply for working on federal property.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Tom,

Its only the law if your state is under the jurisdiction of OSHA. Some states, such as Washington, are not, but it would still apply for working on federal property.

It is my understanding that the feds so not permit a state to have its own "OSHA" unless the state rules equal or exceed the federal rules, so even non-OSHA states should be covered by these rules.
Don

 

[iwire]

It is my understanding that the feds so not permit a state to have its own "OSHA" unless the state rules equal or exceed the federal rules, so even non-OSHA states should be covered by these rules.
Don

That is my understanding as well from the OSHA classes I have attended.

 

[kpepin]

A few years ago, my boss asked me to do something fairly large live. I asked him where the hot gloves were. He told me that the company didn't provide them and it was considered a personal tool. I told him that if he wants me to work live, provide the proper PPE. Needless to say, someone else was asked to do the job. He has since then purchased a few Arc Flash suits that are regurarly used when working in live switchgear.

I have no problem throwing a lockout on things. A lot of guys just turn the breaker off and start working on the circuit. I have seen a few pair of pliers blown up because a carpenter tripped a breaker with his saw and turned the wrong breaker on.

 

[LarryFine]

. . . you have to make a decision, then live with it . . .

That is the goal, after all.

 

[LarryFine]

I have no problem throwing a lockout on things. A lot of guys just turn the breaker off and start working on the circuit. I have seen a few pair of pliers blown up because a carpenter tripped a breaker with his saw and turned the wrong breaker on.

One of my best friends, an EE, is now doing work as a professional witness, and I have worked with him on a few cases. In one recent case of note, an electrician fell from a 16' ladder because of a shock he received working on wiring in a J-box above a suspended ceiling.

He sued the store, claiming that an employee turned a breaker back on while he was off the premises (either at lunch or overnight.) Simply speaking, the electrician was clearly the cuase of his own injuries.

The shock was easily preventable with simple LOTO procedures, and it was his obligation to do so. He didn't even confirm the breakers were still off upon his return to the worksite, although that's a minor detail.

In my opinion, he was a victim of his own neglect. Not only did he have no case, he should be reprimanded and sanctioned. His status as licensed is still under investigation, and the case is still open.

Yes, I have worked on equipment live even when it was possible to de-energize it; yes, I have received a shock (but no burns or scars) on more than one occasion; and yes, I never blamed anyone but myself.

My excuse is that, as a professional, I know how to break the rules properly. Of course, I say that tongue-in-cheek, but it is clear from this thread I'm not alone. We each are responsible for our own safety.

If any of my guys is ever uneasy about working on something live, I accommodate him. If someone applies for a job with me, and says he left his last job (quit or fired) because he refused to do so, he's hired.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

One of my best friends, an EE, is now doing work as a professional witness, and I have worked with him on a few cases. In one recent case of note, an electrician fell from a 16' ladder because of a shock he received working on wiring in a J-box above a suspended ceiling.

He sued the store, claiming that an employee turned a breaker back on while he was off the premises (either at lunch or overnight.) Simply speaking, the electrician was clearly the cuase of his own injuries.

The shock was easily preventable with simple LOTO procedures, and it was his obligation to do so. He didn't even confirm the breakers were still off upon his return to the worksite, although that's a minor detail.

In my opinion, he was a victim of his own neglect. Not only did he have no case, he should be reprimanded and sanctioned. His status as licensed is still under investigation, and the case is still open.

Yes, I have worked on equipment live even when it was possible to de-energize it; yes, I have received a shock (but no burns or scars) on more than one occasion; and yes, I never blamed anyone but myself.

My excuse is that, as a professional, I know how to break the rules properly. Of course, I say that tongue-in-cheek, but it is clear from this thread I'm not alone. We each are responsible for our own safety.

If any of my guys is ever uneasy about working on something live, I accommodate him. If someone applies for a job with me, and says he left his last job (quit or fired) because he refused to do so, he's hired.

This is at least a fair stance. I hope everyone who chooses not to work safely will at least not try to pressure others to do so...