LED: Replace versus Retrofit

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charlie b

charlie b

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Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
We are planning to upgrade the lighting in 20 to 40 year old buildings to LEDs. A colleague and I are writing the work scope upon which prospective contractors will base their bids. I am not a lighting designer, and know little about LED retrofit kits. (I can't believe I am about to say this) Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me? Specific questions:
  1. Given the age of the buildings, is it possible, or even likely, that no retrofit kits exist that can be installed in the original fixtures?
  2. Is it a certainty that one of the options (replace or retrofit) will always be cheaper than the other (parts and labor included)?
  3. Other than removing, bypassing, or otherwise disabling a ballast, and then installing an LED driver somewhere, will the LED bulbs (if that's the right word) fit into the same mounting configuration as the old bulbs? For example, remove the old four foot fluorescent tube, with its two small pins on both sides, insert a four foot LED "tube," with its identical pins, twist the LED tube 90 degrees, and it snaps into the same clips. Is that how it works, or does the installer have to replace the clips with something compatible with the LED tube?
  4. I have heard it suggested that for metal halide and high pressure sodium fixtures, all you need to do is unscrew the old bulb and screw in a new LED bulb. Is it really as simple as that?
Thanks for any information and advice.
 
We replaced 32 W 4 foot fluorescents with a type of 4 foot LED that is designed to interchange. However, they need the electronic ballasts rather than the older magnetic ones. A few years earlier, we had gotten a grant that upgraded our ballasts and tubes, so that was not a problem. We've been very happy w/ them. Approx. 12 W each, and more light.
 
charlie b said:
  1. Given the age of the buildings, is it possible, or even likely, that no retrofit kits exist that can be installed in the original fixtures?
  2. Is it a certainty that one of the options (replace or retrofit) will always be cheaper than the other (parts and labor included)?
  3. Other than removing, bypassing, or otherwise disabling a ballast, and then installing an LED driver somewhere, will the LED bulbs (if that's the right word) fit into the same mounting configuration as the old bulbs? For example, remove the old four foot fluorescent tube, with its two small pins on both sides, insert a four foot LED "tube," with its identical pins, twist the LED tube 90 degrees, and it snaps into the same clips. Is that how it works, or does the installer have to replace the clips with something compatible with the LED tube?
  4. I have heard it suggested that for metal halide and high pressure sodium fixtures, all you need to do is unscrew the old bulb and screw in a new LED bulb. Is it really as simple as that?
Thanks for any information and advice.
Click to expand...
1. Age should have no bearing. Just make sure the new tubes will work on the existing voltage, 120 or 277.
2. With fluorescents, what are you calling replace vs retrofit?
3. Yes, new tubes fit existing tombstones, but often come with new ones. Typical LED tubes take line voltage directly; no external driver.
4. If it says they run on ballast voltage, yes, but I vastly prefer bypass types.
 
Larry, in my (likely inaccurate) language, "replace" means remove the old fixture completely and install a new one, and "retrofit" means remove the bulb, leave the fixture (case, mounting hardware, internal wiring, etc.), and install an LED bulb.
 
There is nothing out there that I have seen that can't be retrofitted and everything I have done has been easier to retrofit than it would be to maintain the existing fixture.

When you install a new led fixture you get better light output and you usually get 0-10V dimming. I do wonder what happens to the led fixtures at the end of life. Is there going to be any replacement parts or are they just a disposable item.
 
charlie b said:
Larry, in my (likely inaccurate) language, "replace" means remove the old fixture completely and install a new one, and "retrofit" means remove the bulb, leave the fixture (case, mounting hardware, internal wiring, etc.), and install an LED bulb.
Click to expand...
Then I would definitely retro-fit. I'd leave the ballasts in place, but cut the wires short.
 
ActionDave said:
I do wonder what happens to the led fixtures at the end of life. Is there going to be any replacement parts or are they just a disposable item.
Click to expand...
I asked that question of the electrician who did out kitchen remodel last year, including the ceiling can LED lights. He said it has no replaceable parts, and I would have to buy new cans. But that is 10+ years in the future, and will likely be the next owner's issue.
 
Might want to spec a minimum CRI. Alot of the low cost LED tubes out there have really poor CRI. Did a AB test with the 841 tubes we were using vs a proposed LED retrofit. Colors werent as vivid and couldnt distinguish between different shades of red with the LED.
 
I changed out many U tube 2x2 troffers and replaced them with flat panel LEDs.

There are led tubes that use the ballast and some that do not.

For exterior fixtures we are bypassing the ballast and using corn cob leds.

What shape are the fixtures in and how dirty are they?
 
jimport said:
I changed out many U tube 2x2 troffers and replaced them with flat panel LEDs.

There are led tubes that use the ballast and some that do not.

For exterior fixtures we are bypassing the ballast and using corn cob leds.

What shape are the fixtures in and how dirty are they?
Click to expand...
Did you use 2x2 LED - POE?

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There is tax advantages to retrofit vs new, bean counters know what they are. We have had customers retrofit fixtures when replacing would have be en cheaper and a whole lot easier. I think there is bigger rebates too.
 
mikeames said:
Did you use 2x2 LED - POE?

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Click to expand...
Commscope has those too. There system is called "Redwood" Everytime I renew my Commscope certification, it is basically a long sales pitch, not much to do with installing. It's as fun as watching paint dry.
 
Charlie,

For the fluorescent tubes, you will need to specify a lamp that is compatible with the existing lamp holders if you don’t plan to replace them. Some LED lamps work with shunted tombstones, some do not.

I always replace the lamp holders using a pre-wired kit. The labor savings makes up for the added cost. I think I pay about $7 for a 4-lamp Kit. I use the Satco lamps that have both L-N on the same end and require non-shunted tombstones. The 24” Satco lamps have L-N on opposite ends and require shunted tombstones. It takes about 60 seconds to replace all 8 lamp holders in the average fixture, and with a kit they are pre-wired.

I have used Keystone lamps also and their 48” LED’s have L-N on opposite ends.


As for the metal halide fixtures, I have previously tried using an LED corn-cob style lamp but was not happy with the results. You also have the added labor of opening the fixture to bypass the ballast. It’s not something easily done in the air, as the fixture needs to be removed to open the ballast compartment.

I’ve found it to be more economical and beneficial to replace the fixture. The cost of “UFO” LED high-bays has dropped to the point where the added cost of a new fixture is equal to the added labor for retrofitting. The benefit to a new LED fixture is having optics designed to put all of the lumen output down on the floor. In a side-by-side comparison, my customers have always opted for new LED fixtures. A 400W equivalent Satco UFO fixture costs me about $125. Their equivalent cob style lamp is $80, and I wouldn’t even say it’s a true equivalent when measuring lumens at ground level.

The only installation I have been using cob lamps on are electric signs with open MH or MV lamps where the lights is scattered in all directions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
brantmacga said:
Charlie,

For the fluorescent tubes, you will need to specify a lamp that is compatible with the existing lamp holders if you don’t plan to replace them. Some LED lamps work with shunted tombstones, some do not......
Click to expand...
Every 4' tube I have bought in the last year is compatible with shunted or non shunted tombstones, can have line and neutral on one end or opposite ends. I haven't used satco. I have used keystone, tcl and phillips.
 
ActionDave said:
Every 4' tube I have bought in the last year is compatible with shunted or non shunted tombstones, can have line and neutral on one end or opposite ends. I haven't used satco. I have used keystone, tcl and phillips.
Click to expand...

I believe I have seen the Keystone that works with both now that you mention it. My primary supplier has much better pricing on Satco. I bought some Keystones a few weeks ago when they were out of stock on Satco and they were 20% higher.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ActionDave said:
Every 4' tube I have bought in the last year is compatible with shunted or non shunted tombstones, can have line and neutral on one end or opposite ends.
Click to expand...
I want to see a wiring diagram of the tube to see how that could possibly work. ;)

I just checked Keystone website, all I checked were non-shunted line voltage power on one end types. Even sell wiring kit to make sure.
 
Hmm, maybe this is a Phillips idea:

16.5T8/COR/48-835/MF20/G 10/1
Our TLEDs are available in InstantFit (Type A / Type C) or MainsFit (Ballast bypass /
Type B) versions. The InstantFit lamps work on a broad variety of ballasts and LED
drivers. Only InstantFit has over 15,000 lamp & ballast combinations delivering even
light output, energy savings and a long lifetime. Our MainsFit products feature a
double-ended design, simplifying installation while a proprietary safety circuit
minimizes a shock risk. Lamp sizes range from 2-foot to 8-foot and U-bend with a
variety of lumen outputs.

No wiring diagram on their specification pages. Reference to double-ended design, but no wiring diagram. Safety circuit? What shock risk are they minimizing? Need more answers, otherwise sounds like salesman puffery. Not what I expect from Phillips.
 
Thanks, everyone. You have given me a great deal to think about, and (admittedly) a few things to try to understand. ;)
 
Some
brantmacga said:
Charlie,

For the fluorescent tubes, you will need to specify a lamp that is compatible with the existing lamp holders if you don’t plan to replace them. Some LED lamps work with shunted tombstones, some do not.

I always replace the lamp holders using a pre-wired kit. The labor savings makes up for the added cost. I think I pay about $7 for a 4-lamp Kit. I use the Satco lamps that have both L-N on the same end and require non-shunted tombstones. The 24” Satco lamps have L-N on opposite ends and require shunted tombstones. It takes about 60 seconds to replace all 8 lamp holders in the average fixture, and with a kit they are pre-wired.

I have used Keystone lamps also and their 48” LED’s have L-N on opposite ends.


As for the metal halide fixtures, I have previously tried using an LED corn-cob style lamp but was not happy with the results. You also have the added labor of opening the fixture to bypass the ballast. It’s not something easily done in the air, as the fixture needs to be removed to open the ballast compartment.

I’ve found it to be more economical and beneficial to replace the fixture. The cost of “UFO” LED high-bays has dropped to the point where the added cost of a new fixture is equal to the added labor for retrofitting. The benefit to a new LED fixture is having optics designed to put all of the lumen output down on the floor. In a side-by-side comparison, my customers have always opted for new LED fixtures. A 400W equivalent Satco UFO fixture costs me about $125. Their equivalent cob style lamp is $80, and I wouldn’t even say it’s a true equivalent when measuring lumens at ground level.

The only installation I have been using cob lamps on are electric signs with open MH or MV lamps where the lights is scattered in all directions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The above is all very good advice.
For replacing HID and HPS lamps/fixtures, yes the ballast can be bypassed and a screw in corn cob light used. I have seen high failure rates on these and as pointed out the light distribution is not the same, as the lamp optics are designed for a point source and the corn cob light retrofits (at left in this link) https://www.led-llc.com/ are certainly not a point source. Plus with a new luminare, you will have a warranty. And if you have the ballast bypassed, and some maint person sees a lamp out, and screws in a regular HPS or HID lamp on line voltage, it would be bad.

For your LED replacements, there are line voltage LED lamps that work with existing ballast, but this is not as efficent as a new LED lamp and driver.
A very good local resource for you is the Seattle Lighting Design Lab. https://www.lightingdesignlab.com/

This page https://www.lightingdesignlab.com/resources is the resource page, lots of good info on projects, there are several you should look at including warehouse LED high bay, and open office LED retro kit

The LDL is funded by NW Utilities. There may be some rebate money from the utility for your project. I would suggest you contact them, I used to do lighting retrofits and they are very helpful and maybe even had some bid specs!
 
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