Legal Counsel says running conduit is NOT electrical work.

[zog]

The NEC has nothing about licensing, permits or inspections and never uses the term electrician. An area can freely decide that the local butcher is qualified to run pipe.

Agreed. The NEC has design requirements for switchgear, and I don't think the guys designing and building switchgear need to be electricians either.

(Been agreeing with you a lot lately, I must be getting old.)

 

[BPoindexter]

Basically the State can determine what is law and legal and what is not. The NEC is a standard not a legal document unless adopted as such. There are areas where licenses, inspections, etc are not required. I agree that it is absolutely silly the way that whatever State this is has decided but they are allowed to legally adopt it as they see fit. I would bet you money that there was some 3rd party interest involved in this. For example I know of at least one State that has wholly rejected the AFCI requirements (unless they changed recently).

 

[BattleCat]

Agreed. The NEC has design requirements for switchgear, and I don't think the guys designing and building switchgear need to be electricians either.

(Been agreeing with you a lot lately, I must be getting old.)

If a manufacturer chooses to follow a guideline, such as what the NEC recommends, that is a separate issue. They are not bound by the NEC, the installer is. It's up to the installer to find switchgear that will satisfy the NEC requirements.

Installing a pipe is a completely different animal, and ​must be installed to the NEC requirements.

 

[mjf]

Makes me wonder where all these pipes come from and go to when run by "other than electricians".

Are they terminated into ELECTRICAL boxes, panels, etc. or do they just start and end in the spot the electrician is going to install such items?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Rick in Googling this subject matter your state has had several ajuducated issues involving conduit instalation along with other states determining that the conduit itself being run without wiring in it does not constitute electrical work. These challenges by fiber optic, communication wiring etc. has probably spawned the inquiry into the subject.

NJ has a telecommunication exemption license that exempt license holders from having an electrical contractors license to perform work that is "installed and connected to an FCC recognized

communication network at the point of connection provided by the public utility providingcommunication services to the customer. It shall also include the interconnection of data​

wiring between computers and/or terminals."

 

[G._S._Ohm]

So a pipe is many things to many people.

I thought men fought over land, women and money. I guess they fight over everything.

 

[ronaldrc]

What about liability?

If you have a fire or explosion thats caused by a bad conduit installation, is
it going to automatically be the Electrical Contractors fault as fires are now?

Or are the Lawyers getting low on work again, look at whats happen to Medical
this is one reason why Insurance is so high.

 

[joebell]

Around here (MA/NH area) Site contractors install PVC in underground situations as far as installing meal raceway systems IMO that this should be left to an electrician

 

[mivey]

Another thing to consider for EMT is that if it is used as an EGC, it's now more than a raceway, it's also a conductor.

:thumbsup:

If I were an inspector or the AHJ in this scenario I think the way I would handle it is, let "whoever" run the conduit and then let it be covered up with finishes, when the wire is installed I would have the finishes removed so I could inspect the conduit for NEC compliance. Then let say the next time they call for a conduit inspection so this wouldn't happen again, I would simply tell them that the conduit by itself is not electrical so I can't inspect it, then if they put wire in it I would tell them it is now electrical

I like it, as long as they were fore-warned.

and the wire could only be installed into conduit installed by an EC.

Or it passed inspection.

 

[ronaldrc]

If I were an inspector or the AHJ in this scenario I think the way I would handle it is, let "whoever" run the conduit and then let it be covered up with finishes, when the wire is installed I would have the finishes removed so I could inspect the conduit for NEC compliance. Then let say the next time they call for a conduit inspection so this wouldn't happen again, I would simply tell them that the conduit by itself is not electrical so I can't inspect it, then if they put wire in it I would tell them it is now electrical and the wire could only be installed into conduit installed by an EC.


Roger

Now Now Roger

Other than the Pay, I think you would be a very good Inspector, and if you where you would not do what you said above. Although it would be the right thing to do. And that's the reason you should never be a Inspector.

The best Inspector we ever had here was about 40 years old and very experienced in all
phase of the Electrical trade, and very reasonable and flexible, he lasted exactly two weeks.

He quit.

Ronald

 

[Fulthrotl]

If I were an inspector or the AHJ in this scenario I think the way I would handle it is, let "whoever" run the conduit and then let it be covered up with finishes, when the wire is installed I would have the finishes removed so I could inspect the conduit for NEC compliance. Then let say the next time they call for a conduit inspection so this wouldn't happen again, I would simply tell them that the conduit by itself is not electrical so I can't inspect it, then if they put wire in it I would tell them it is now electrical and the wire could only be installed into conduit installed by an EC.
Roger

well, there are a number of situations where thinwall conduit is not used electrically....

and beverage dispensing lines come to mind, but they usually use PVC, as it's nsf approved....

then... there are vacuum messaging systems, but those have sorta fallen out of favor....
hospitals still use them for pharmacy transfers, but that's about it.

and anyone can put thinwall anywhere, and it's NOT electrical until it connects to an electrical
system and/or has conductors installed in it.

sounds like an organized labor bid for someone like laborers to install conduit... this "legal counsel"
probably has been "strongly influenced" by someone within organized labor.

i've seen laborers installing 4" PVC in ditches..... claiming it's "their work", 'cause it's in a ditch.
i also saw the electrical contractor dig it up and fix it, with a huge backcharge to the laborer
contractor.....

seems you can't get wires thru pipes that are full of concrete...... who'd a thought?
see... electricians know that, and laborers don't know it, that's why their pipes were
full of slurry, i guess. electricians would never have thought of getting rid of the excess
concrete inside pipes instead of in a washout area.... just those sneaky laborers getting
out of having to break up that washout area at the end of the job....

 

[jusme123]

If I were an inspector or the AHJ in this scenario I think the way I would handle it is, let "whoever" run the conduit and then let it be covered up with finishes, when the wire is installed I would have the finishes removed so I could inspect the conduit for NEC compliance. Then let say the next time they call for a conduit inspection so this wouldn't happen again, I would simply tell them that the conduit by itself is not electrical so I can't inspect it, then if they put wire in it I would tell them it is now electrical and the wire could only be installed into conduit installed by an EC.


Roger

...from every electrician that has installed conduit, Thanks Roger!!!!

 

[Sierrasparky]

And that is a very good point.

Roger

I like that too!:roll:

 

[jusme123]

I would also want to check every connection to make sure my ground was up to par. Might as well pay me to install it after that check.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why would a EC ever take responsibility for work done by others that 1 are not performed by experieinced tradesman or 2 inspected by a trained professional.

 

[ronaldrc]

I am absolutely unsure as to why Legal Counsel has determined in my state that installing conduit is NOT electrical work. Somehow they have extrapolated from the code that until conduit has wire in it it is merely tubing and does not require supervision of a licensed electrician or an electrical inspection. I find this decision absolutely ludicrous and quite frankly have no idea as to why they feel qualified to interpret the National Electrical Code in the first place. My question is does anyone else have experience with this happening and also what is your opinion on this issue.

I realize employment is at a all time low.

I don't have a problem if that is the motive.

Except the problems below​

When something goes wrong and result in tens of thousands of dollars
of damages fingers are going to be pointing every where.

Our justice system is already a shambles from being overloaded they don't need
this extra load which will be paid by the tax payers. And we don't need this extra
tax burden either.

Just more work for Lawyers and more minimum wage jobs for the poor is what
this will lead to. And with less qualified Electricians shrinks the middle class even
more.

But I repeat my fist post.

What about liability?

If you have a fire or explosion that's caused by a bad conduit installation, is*
it going to automatically be the Electrical Contractors fault as fires are now?

Or are the Lawyers getting low on work again, look at whats happen to Medical
this is one reason why Insurance is so high.

Ronald

 

[kwired]

I say let whoever wants to install conduits install them, but if you want to pull conductors through a "raceway" then the qualified person needed to install the conductors also needs to install the "raceway". Together the raceway and conductors are part of the electrical system. If someone wants to install a chase that may happen to be a tubular system in which a qualified person can pull their "raceways" or "cables" through - then by all means let them do so.

 

[ronaldrc]

What comes next if this becomes wide spread ?

Anyone that can read can learn to read a plan easy.

Will they be pulling our conductors and installing our switches and receptacles?

Do you really think the CEO's of the larger shops care,they would love to pay
lower wages.

That leaves the qualified Electricians with only making more complex taps and control work only,
just a little more difficult but not so much.

 

[jusme123]

Well that is another issue for the lawyers and not those of us that have a stake in the status quo.

...it sounds like one trade wants to buy another trades work :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

 

[MichaelGP3]

Honestly running conduit or EMT is not in my mind electrical work. In the states I work it has been traditionally considered so but I can see the argument that it is not.

Honestly, in my mind it is, and I can't see the arguement that it isn't.

I worked on a hospital job where the electricians did not deburr the all of the emt during the install. When the wiring could not be landed due to it not being able to pass a megger test, we knew who to point the finger at. In a situation where a 3rd party installed the conduit, that 3rd party could say "This is the electricians fault (bad pun, sorry) for furnishing bad wire."

The damaged conductor(s) could be grounding far away from the burr(s) that caused the problem(s) in the first place.

I can see why legal counsel got involved. They make more money when blame is more difficult to apportion.