Legal Counsel says running conduit is NOT electrical work.

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I was talking about the original and primary function of the NFPA. Even the original NEC's primary focus was fire prevention, not electrocution.
Well they took a pretty big step in the direction of electrocution protection when they first introduced GFCI's.

And they have possibly gone well beyond both fire and electrocution hazards in recent years with some requirements.

The most recent edition 90.1(A) does not use the words fire or electrocution, or any words derived from those two words, and simply says "hazards arising from the use of electricity".
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Legal counsel does not sound very intelligent to me.

True, nothing strictly electrical about conduit. Just a few minor details, like rough cuts that could damage wire, too many bends to pull wire through, bends too sharp, loose couplings that could break ground continuity, flimsy racks that could drop conduits & live conductors to a crowded floor, boxes violating fill chart, improper connectors that allow water into an enclosure or conduit.
Yeah only an electrician can possible overcome those issues. :)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Remember that the PRIMARY role of the NFPA(NEC) is fire prevention and control. Since the fire propagation issues of a fiber is most similar to cable and conductor parameters and the installation method as well, there is really no other sections of the NFPA where this would fit.
Regardless of the NFPAs primary goal of fire protection the NECs primary goal is electrcal safety.

Let's not forget the NFPA has no problem producing other standards for fire prevention.


Not to mention that the requisite experience and expertise exist within the panels and through the harmonization process a comprehensive process can be expected without the need for re-inventing the wheel.
Hardly a reason to limit people's option to earn a living.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I was talking about the original and primary function of the NFPA. Even the original NEC's primary focus was fire prevention, not electrocution.
So help me out, how do the current rules in the NEC regarding EMT and fiber optic cable help prevent fires?

I think it is worth remembering that fire stoping rules when running EMT are not even found in the NEC.
 

elohr46

Senior Member
Location
square one
All of the arguments that say it is ok for the non-electricians to install the electrical raceways systems also would apply to the installation of the rest of the electrical system. There is no need for electricians, or plumbers or HVAC guys as long at the installer of the systems involved has the proper training and licenses.
This is so true, why can't I do brain surgery if a brain surgeon is next to me supervising the whole procedure? Of course it is self-serving for electricians to want to do the electrical work, this how everything works in America.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
This is so true, why can't I do brain surgery if a brain surgeon is next to me supervising the whole procedure? Of course it is self-serving for electricians to want to do the electrical work, this how everything works in America.
Yeah, running EMT and Conduit is just as complicated as brain surgery. :p
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This is so true, why can't I do brain surgery if a brain surgeon is next to me supervising the whole procedure? Of course it is self-serving for electricians to want to do the electrical work, this how everything works in America.
And to top it all off you are operating on your own brain in an effort to save a few hundred dollars:happyyes:
 
Yeah, running EMT and Conduit is just as complicated as brain surgery. :p
Actually, it would depend on how good you were at math. I know doctors that are great surgeons but aren't good at, don't like and don't need to like math to do their jobs. To them, running EMT may be more complicated than brain surgery and be a frustrating and arduous task. Of course, since they obviously have the means, they could simply can the frustration and have their receptionist do it for them.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Actually, it would depend on how good you were at math. I know doctors that are great surgeons but aren't good at, don't like and don't need to like math to do their jobs. To them, running EMT may be more complicated than brain surgery and be a frustrating and arduous task. Of course, since they obviously have the means, they could simply can the frustration and have their receptionist do it for them.
I'm guessing they use more math then the average person may realize. Like any other profession they do have formulas, charts, calculators to help them figure some things. One example may be to determine how much dosage of a certain drug to prescribe, it could be based on a persons weight, and complicated by age or other physical conditions. Sure they may often have charts or slide calculators to assist them, but probably could figure it out without those devices also.

Conduit bending doesn't require much more than some basic math skills, if you use published charts or tables to help you with offsets, shrink, and other things that could otherwise be figured out with some trigonometry.
 
I'm guessing they use more math then the average person may realize. Like any other profession they do have formulas, charts, calculators to help them figure some things. One example may be to determine how much dosage of a certain drug to prescribe, it could be based on a persons weight, and complicated by age or other physical conditions. Sure they may often have charts or slide calculators to assist them, but probably could figure it out without those devices also.

Conduit bending doesn't require much more than some basic math skills, if you use published charts or tables to help you with offsets, shrink, and other things that could otherwise be figured out with some trigonometry.
Perhaps. So the part about the receptionist was OK with you?

:p
 
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Gold

Member
Location
US
Laborers are just as capable of running conduit in the ground when there givin a drawing with specs as anyone else. Probably should be some limits with regard to hazardous locations tho. I think most of what they do is pvc in dirt, I don't think we are talking about letting them design build a gas station or grain mill.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Perhaps. So the part about the receptionist was OK with you?

:p
Why not, after all in small practices the receptionist (not a medical professional) seems to know and sometimes does some tasks that may be questionable if they are qualified to do so.

My family sees a small practitioner for our day to day medical needs, and they have had receptionists in the past that weigh you, take your height, (those maybe are not so questionable), and take your blood pressure and pulse before the doctor sees you. Those tasks maybe are not too big of a deal, but then again I am not a medical professional so I don't know how critical accuracy is for these tasks, I suppose if there is enough concern the doctor will double check themselves.
 
Why not, after all in small practices the receptionist (not a medical professional) seems to know and sometimes does some tasks that may be questionable if they are qualified to do so.

My family sees a small practitioner for our day to day medical needs, and they have had receptionists in the past that weigh you, take your height, (those maybe are not so questionable), and take your blood pressure and pulse before the doctor sees you. Those tasks maybe are not too big of a deal, but then again I am not a medical professional so I don't know how critical accuracy is for these tasks, I suppose if there is enough concern the doctor will double check themselves.
Wanted:

Medical Receptionist

Requires GED or equivalent plus at least 2 years experience.
Must be able to use computer and related software for scheduling.
Must have had training and or experience taking vital signs from patients, including blood pressure.

Bi-lingual and previous experience running EMT or other electrical raceways a plus.

Resumes only please.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Wanted:

Medical Receptionist

Requires GED or equivalent plus at least 2 years experience.
Must be able to use computer and related software for scheduling.
Must have had training and or experience taking vital signs from patients, including blood pressure.

Bi-lingual and previous experience running EMT or other electrical raceways a plus.

Resumes only please.
Knowledge of NEC art 517 automatically makes you a finalist for job selection.
 

San -Brooke

Member
Location
USA
I must say that at the time I originally postedI had no idea there would be the volume of response. And to clarify this was not a trolling expedition and anonymity is out of fear of repercussion and job loss not out of an imaginary situation. For the record I am a big advocate for licensing my philosophy is one that if no minimum definition is given as to what defines what an electrician is then what contractors define can be costly and deadly. Without a level of aptitude and accountability many times individuals can be placed under phenomenal amount of pressure to complete tasks without the experience of knowing the best solution to the problem at hand. Because of this I have tried to ensure that licensing does not die off much as it did to my understanding in other states.So when given an explanation by someone with zero experience in electrical tells me that they do not feel that conduit installation is electrical thus noneed for a licensed electrician to supervise an installation I find that absurd. I believe that the only purpose for code requirements for all conduit installation is in anticipation of wire or some other form of communication system,which falls under NEC requirements. Under this argument that it is not electrical work then it should NOT be inspected until it has wire in it and yes as addressed in posts prior to this one if that is the case then once wire is installed then the conduit should be uncovered whether it be behind finished walls under slab under dirt or encased in concrete. Obviously the individuals making these decisions need to re-think the absolute stupidity of these ideas.
 

mivey

Senior Member
thus no need for a licensed electrician to supervise an installation I find that absurd... I believe that the only purpose for code requirements for all conduit installation is in anticipation of wire or some other form of communication system,which falls under NEC requirements.
I agree. If there were some means to get a non-EC to install the conduit, then you might not need an EC. I suppose you could have a qualified electrical conduit installer do the work but where do they have them? If it is put in by the owner but not inspected then that is another problem. I do not see any way around the fact that electrical conduit should be put in by qualified persons and/or inspected per electrical code.

A panel is just a metal box, right? A small circuit breaker is just a piece of plastic that has some metal parts and components and installation really only requires basic skills of being able to grasp, align, push, turn a screwdriver, etc. that most anybody has right?

Why the need to dumb down the parts of an electrical system? The electrical conduit is a key component. Proper installation of an electrical conduit is needed for the electric system to work correctly. EC or no EC, its installation still should be recognized as an electrical task and it should be installed per code (or better) standards.

Would you put a weak brick in a house because "hey, it's just baked clay-nothing special".
 

elohr46

Senior Member
Location
square one
Yeah, running EMT and Conduit is just as complicated as brain surgery. :p
Have you looked into a brain surgeon's tool kit recently? They have drills and saws similar to what you and I use in the job, I can drill a hole in someone's head with a cordless, why can't I perform brain surgery? Just because anyone can glue two pieces of pvc conduit together doesn't mean that it is no longer electrical work.;)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Have you looked into a brain surgeon's tool kit recently? They have drills and saws similar to what you and I use in the job, I can drill a hole in someone's head with a cordless, why can't I perform brain surgery? Just because anyone can glue two pieces of pvc conduit together doesn't mean that it is no longer electrical work.;)

You cannot posible be saying running conduit is as complicated as performing surgery.
 
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