Letter from the BBB...

[480sparky]

......How do you "mind over matter" that one... :-?

Most commercial & industrial jobs have more than one electrician on site, and a new restaurant may well have 6-8 at any given time. Most GCs and owners know that not every one of them is going to be a JW-level mechanic, and are aware that there will be noobies/cubbies/apprentices on the job learning the trade. They are also aware that they're not paying for them at the same rate as a top-notch JW. Because GCs and owners are very well aware of different pay rates for different skill levels, they accept this.

Homeowners, however, are far removed from the realities of running a business. Coupled with the fact that usually it's just one electrician showing up in a company truck, they expect that person to know what they're doing.

 

[realolman]

This makes me think of my first year apprenticing on a resturant job. My boss walks into the room and sees me wrestling with some conduit and sais: Lets not allow the customer to think that this is a classroom and we are learning on his time. I gave him the OK nod and tried to look like I really knew what I was doing, but all I could think is: Dang it! This IS a classroom and I AM learning on thier buck!

How do you "mind over matter" that one... :-?

You were learning on your employer's buck and he was allowing you to learn on the restaurant's buck. He no doubt paid you less than he paid someone more experienced.

I am sure he was charging them a reduced rate for your services?:wink:

 

[steelersman]

go you have a link for this?

just a joke. I do not know of any JB finders, but now that I've said that I'm sure someone will come up with a link (Marc perhaps) and I will be shocked.

 

[growler]

I recived a complaint from a customer.He is not happy that i charged him for 2 1/2 hrs. P.S plus this is a couple in there sixties so i really feel bad.I just want them to be happy,and to know that in no way was i trying to rip them off.

Do you know if the problem has been fixed by another contractor and how long it took for them to do it?

It's one thing for a homeowner to think that a job is taking to long but then again what are they comparing it to.

If I trouble-shoot a problem for 2 1/2 hours that someone else can find in an hour or less then I will be more than happy to refund their money ( every penny of it ). This has not happened yet.

Tell the homeowner to get the problem repaired and see how long and how much it cost. This will let you know if you are just learning on their time or if this really was just a hard one to trouble-shoot.

 

[480sparky]

just a joke. I do not know of any JB finders, but now that I've said that I'm sure someone will come up with a link (Marc perhaps) and I will be shocked.

No it isn't. They actually make such a thing. You can see right through the walls and spot a jbox, as long as the circuit has enough current flow.

 

[steelersman]

No it isn't. They actually make such a thing. You can see right through the walls and spot a jbox, as long as the circuit has enough current flow.

yeah enough current to damn near catch the conductors on fire. I'm sure that thing is cheap and sold at all electrical supply houses. Might as well use a tone generator.

 

[iwire]

The company I work for has a thermal imaging camera, you can do a lot with it. It makes a great stud finder for $45K.

 

[480sparky]

The company I work for has a thermal imaging camera, you can do a lot with it. It makes a great stud finder for $45K.

You can't find ducts with it?

 

[480sparky]

Do you know if the problem has been fixed by another contractor and how long it took for them to do it?

It's one thing for a homeowner to think that a job is taking to long but then again what are they comparing it to.

If I trouble-shoot a problem for 2 1/2 hours that someone else can find in an hour or less then I will be more than happy to refund their money ( every penny of it ). This has not happened yet.

Tell the homeowner to get the problem repaired and see how long and how much it cost. This will let you know if you are just learning on their time or if this really was just a hard one to trouble-shoot.

Also, what did the HO tell the next guy about what you did? Did he have to start from scratch, like you did, or did the HO tell him everything you had already checked, which would have given him a 'head start' on locating the problem?

 

[bikeindy]

Doctors, and Lawyers do.

But they are "practicing" law and Medicine we already know our jobs and I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

 

[Fulthrotl]

You can't find ducts with it?

for that, you use the directional microphone, and listen for the "quack".

 

[220/221]

I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

If all the wiring is stock it wouldn't be an issue.

I have had a couple recently that took longer than that.

Both were residential, romex, no attic access.

Both were refed instead of repaired because I couldn't locate the mystery splice without cutting out drywall.

First one was ALL stock wiring circa 1980. It took over an hour to take apart all 15 boxes and determine whwe the fault was. It took a couple more hours to re feed it and I still didn't get to see the fault.

Second one was last Friday. Walking in the door I knew that a handyman had installed the additional kitchen lighting/electrical. I found there was an open neutral to one undercabinet light and the built in microwave.

It took about an hour to eliminate all jb's as the source. I had to remove the built in microwave to make a last ditch effort to avoid cutting drywall. I did find an open splice in the wall (old vent hood to micro recep) but it was not the source. There was however a dedicated micro circuit abandoned in a jb behind the micro so I hooked it up, backfed the UC light and abandoned the original feed.

Again, I never got to see the problem but I KNOW that the handyman spliced into the circuit and buried it in the ceiling.


An hour goes by quickly when you spend half of it acratching your head.

 

[mdshunk]

Communication is important when troubleshooting drags on. Keep the customer updated if they seem antsy. Tell them what you've eliminated, tell them where it might still be, like "Between here and here", and so fourth. Keep them in the loop, and make them aware of your progress. Turn things around and use the fact that time is passing by to build value in your hard work. Drag out fancy gadgets, and open the cases as if you're displaying a new Rolex. Use the instrument as if you're handling a Faberge egg. Arrange your tools and test equipment neatly when you're not using them in your hand. Resist the urge to badmouth whoever did what you're finding. Could be their favorite uncle Billy or something like that.

 

[Fulthrotl]

But they are "practicing" law and Medicine we already know our jobs and I am with Marc on this one I think the problem should have been found in an hour or less.

it doesn't always work like that.

i did control wiring on a 75' tall high bay door, that had it's upper track
extended out on the bottom of a crane door, so the 500 ton bridge crane
could go outside the building into a canopy area.

everything interlocked eleventeen different ways, to prevent the lower
door from being extended out onto the crane door unless the dogs
on the crane door were fully down in the locked position.

the first weekend the customer used the door, they almost dropped the
75' tall high bay doors, by running them out when the crane door was
unlocked.

monday morning, there were attorneys present, and i, and a third party
who was there to keep me honest, went on a wire by wire survey of the
controls to find where i screwed up. it took more than an hour, it took
three days, for a very simple reason.

i had not made any mistakes... at the end of the third day, we were
up in the basket at 75', looking inside a pull box, checking wires, and 20'
away was a limit switch with a 12" whisker, to pick up when the crane
door locks were fully engaged, securing the door.

and a pigeon flew in the door, and landed on the 12" whisker, causing a
false closure. the other guy and i just looked at one another, and i said
i was sure glad he was there, 'cause NOBODY would believe just one of
us coming down with that story, claiming what they saw.

there are now pigeon guards on the limit switches.

troubleshooting successfully requires communication with the customer,
explaining exactly what i am doing, and why the amount of time is
unknown... i usually explain that the problem will be in the LAST place
i look, and if they can tell me where that is right now, we can be done
in 15 minutes.

that explanation seems to work well for me.

randy

 

[Fulthrotl]

Resist the urge to badmouth whoever did what you're finding. Could be their favorite uncle Billy or something like that.

or them personally..... i've learned this one the hard way :-(
it does wonders for eliminating customer rapport.

 

[aline]

I used this tool to find;

Basement bedroom had lost power to just the receptacles. Receptacles showed an open neutral. The light and smoke detector were working fine. Found this buried j-box two rooms away in the basement family room ceiling. Had a loose neutral connection in it.

Found a burned up splice in this underground cable feeding power to a water feature pump. It would work fine until it rained and saturated the ground. Then the breaker would trip.

 

[220/221]

a pigeon flew in the door, and landed on the 12" whisker

That's awesome! Did it fly in and land there while you were there or was this an assumtion because of pigeon poop?

 

[brian john]

Double post my aploogies

 

[brian john]

I think you should be ashamed that it took you so long to not find a simple problem. Refund him in full.

I agree with Marc, in the one or two situations where I was taking longer than it should take in my opinion I charged nothing I wanted to know why!

The area is so small with what 3 devices isolate and solve.

Oh an Zappy it is an EXHAUST FAN, could be your terminology made the customer question your skills. Be professional and you give a better presence to your customer.

 

[steelersman]

Double post my aploogies

what are aploogies?