License to buy material

[goldstar]

I feel that the box stores should charge more for material sold to customers without at least a business license. This is common with most businesses as they have standard prices and heavily discounted ones for contractors.

That would put a big dent in HD's bottom line. Chances of that happening are a shot in a million.

I really feel that the box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot charge too little for their parts. Especially the bread and butter things like 12-2 and 14-2. I know it's a way to get people there to buy things but seriously. Either the electrician charges markup for the material and the home owner pays more. Or the box store should hike their prices up 20-30% before selling to home owners.

Both HD & Lowe's buy in such large bulk that a simple thing like a 250' roll of 14/2 Roamex is $10.00 more at my regular supply house. I generally support my supply houses because they generally have more items I need in stock. However, when buying wire Like 14/2 & 12/2 I generally use HD.

This stops customers from running down to the box store and then picking apart your bill saying they can get the items cheaper. I always tell customers like that: go get your parts cheaper, but you won't have a warranty and you won't have it wired by me.

That's your choice. I take the approach that you can buy all the material you want to with the understanding that if any of it malfunctions you are taking it back - not me.

I do think there needs to be a way to make it harder for a customer who wants to work on his own home as well as the apprentices trying to install without their j card or contractor license. But making it illegal to anyone but an electrician, I feel is unconstitutional at best.

Not sure what the rules are where you live but I need both a license and a business permit to contract electrical work with anyone (including my neighbor or my mother). My supply houses charge the same amount of $$ to both me or someone walking in off the street. The only advantage I have is taking a 2% discount if I pay within 10 days.


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[blkmagik21]

An owner, or a family member of the owner can wire for the owner. Besides that you need a contractors license to purchase a permit in Washington.

My supply house charges more for people who walk in off the street and give me a large discount on materials. Usually quite far below the box store prices.


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[iwire]

My supply houses charge the same amount of $$ to both me or someone walking in off the street.

That may be what they are doing to you but for sure they have different price tiers available to them to charge you.

I work for a company that does a ton of business and our pricing is pretty low. I have had counter guys do double takes on the prices we get.

 

[goldstar]

That may be what they are doing to you but for sure they have different price tiers available to them to charge you.

I work for a company that does a ton of business and our pricing is pretty low. I have had counter guys do double takes on the prices we get.

I would imagine if you're doing a high $$ volume per month and you discount your bills you'll get better pricing. But for the guy going in to buy a couple of JB's and a box of receptacles it's the same price for all in my area.

 

[kwired]

You've been living in Nebraska too long. The closer you get to a coastal metropolis (like NY, LA, Boston, etc.) the more stringently codes are and the more they're enforced.

And do they put you in prison for violating codes and permit rules or do they just fine you? Breaking these kind of laws is usually just an infraction, and not even handled in court of law, they are handled by the AHJ. Failure to comply and/or pay the fines could eventually lead to getting law enforcement or a court involved though.

Now if your non code compliant work results in someone getting killed, and they can prove willful intent, there could be homicide charges, but I would think that is pretty rare except for on television's CSI shows.

 

[goldstar]

And do they put you in prison for violating codes and permit rules or do they just fine you? Breaking these kind of laws is usually just an infraction, and not even handled in court of law, they are handled by the AHJ. Failure to comply and/or pay the fines could eventually lead to getting law enforcement or a court involved though.

Now if your non code compliant work results in someone getting killed, and they can prove willful intent, there could be homicide charges, but I would think that is pretty rare except for on television's CSI shows.

I mentioned this before, here in NJ the fine for a 1st time offense for doing electrical work without a license & business permit is $1K. Repeated offences can result in jali time. It is a felony. If I remember correctly, the EI in your area stops by at the end of the week after he's done crop dusting.

 

[Electric-Light]

Also, this wouldn't stop large scale misappropriation. A notable example is a large property management company. They would figure out a way to purchase whatever they wanted and all that license requirements wouldn't keep receptacles from getting delegated to handyman where they enjoy the privacy of walled garden to do illegal work. If you were to ask me, this is a bigger problem. It's greedy real estate owners and management companies doing something illegal in homes where tenants stand to risk harm instead.

 

[kwired]

I mentioned this before, here in NJ the fine for a 1st time offense for doing electrical work without a license & business permit is $1K. Repeated offences can result in jali time. It is a felony. If I remember correctly, the EI in your area stops by at the end of the week after he's done crop dusting.

That is a pretty stiff fine for first time compared to the slap on the hand you get here.

How does it work for homeowners doing their own work in their own home, I imagine it is allowed but permits maybe don't always get filed and creates some troubles if they get caught.

Next thing is where do they draw the line on maintenance type issues, like just replacing components for like components?

 

[user 100]

Another problem I have is when a homeowner does his own work or hires a jackleg then sells the house. He not only put his own family at risk but now another innocent and unsuspecting family is put in jeopardy because of his negligence. If electrical material beyond replacement items like switches, receptacles and light bulbs were difficult for HOs to get we would be much safer.

-Hal

Would it really?
Another problem with the ops proposal is that it likely wouldn't make anything safer- theoretically a HO or DIY couldn't buy lots of nm but they can still "convert" so cord or the orange spaghetti ext cords into bc wiring even if nm was completely unavailable for purchase, personally I would rather see 14/2 get over amped continously rather than either on of those 2. Or tap off the main lugs when they can no longer add a breaker b/c brkrs at the big box are no longer an option......hmy:

Trunkslammers and DIYs will "adapt" not matter what.:happyyes:


We could very well end exacerbating a safety problem w/ DIY's and trunkslammers- remember the old adage about laws and unintended consequences.

 

[goldstar]

That is a pretty stiff fine for first time compared to the slap on the hand you get here.

Actually those $1K fines are issued when someone is turned into the licensing board for advertising or doing electrical work without a license. I've seen a case where a licensed contractor price gouged an elderly lady and charged her $6K to do a simple upgrade. He got the $1K fine as well as losing his license. If he were caught doing electrical work again I'm guessing that would result in jail time.

How does it work for homeowners doing their own work in their own home, I imagine it is allowed but permits maybe don't always get filed and creates some troubles if they get caught.

Many HO's look to save a buck and will do their own work without permits. If it's small they will most likely get away with it. However, if an AHJ passes by and sees a dumpster in the driveway with no permit sticker in the window he has the authority to stop the job and sometimes requires police action.

Next thing is where do they draw the line on maintenance type issues, like just replacing components for like components?

I'm guessing that anything from switches and receptacles to AC disconnects a HO will do if they feel confident in their ability. It's when they don't feel confident but do it anyway just to save a buck is where the problem arises.

 

[chris1971]

I'm completely opposed to this idea!:rant:

 

[infinity]

The NJ UCC has a specific list of what's considered ordinary maintenance that does not require permits or inspections. That's pretty much an open door for the DIY, trunk slammers or handymen to do the work. There are fines for those who don't play by the rules but enforcement is limited and the number of those who are actually caught is extremely low when compared to the amount of work being done outside of the scope of the law.

 

[goldstar]

The NJ UCC has a specific list of what's considered ordinary maintenance that does not require permits or inspections. That's pretty much an open door for the DIY, trunk slammers or handymen to do the work. There are fines for those who don't play by the rules but enforcement is limited and the number of those who are actually caught is extremely low when compared to the amount of work being done outside of the scope of the law.

Agreed. There has to be an excessive amount of obvious abuse for an EI to turn in that person or if an EC loses a job to a handyman and turns that person into the licensing board is when action is taken.

 

[kwired]

Actually those $1K fines are issued when someone is turned into the licensing board for advertising or doing electrical work without a license. I've seen a case where a licensed contractor price gouged an elderly lady and charged her $6K to do a simple upgrade. He got the $1K fine as well as losing his license. If he were caught doing electrical work again I'm guessing that would result in jail time.

Many HO's look to save a buck and will do their own work without permits. If it's small they will most likely get away with it. However, if an AHJ passes by and sees a dumpster in the driveway with no permit sticker in the window he has the authority to stop the job and sometimes requires police action.

I'm guessing that anything from switches and receptacles to AC disconnects a HO will do if they feel confident in their ability. It's when they don't feel confident but do it anyway just to save a buck is where the problem arises.

JMO, but price gouging in general should be a civil court case between the two parties involved, the AHJ should only concern themselves with licensing and inspections, not contractor performance or other business issues.

I can understand an AHJ stopping progress if they come across an unpermitted project, or even unlicensed workers, getting police involved, doesn't seem like something that should happen unless the situation becomes violent, or if the work stop order is ignored the AHJ needs to proceed through the district attorney, maybe a judge will issue an order to stop work, and then if that is still ignored the police get involved.

Often times AHJ's do have the authority to order utilities be disconnected, seems that should come before sending police in there.

If those being asked to stop become violent - then that is reason to get police involved sooner instead of later.

 

[Electric-Light]

Agreed. There has to be an excessive amount of obvious abuse for an EI to turn in that person or if an EC loses a job to a handyman and turns that person into the licensing board is when action is taken.

What's allowed/not allowed isn't clear cut general common sense such as not acting on directions to go set someone's house on fire.
The maintenance worker is also likely to lose his job when the company can find plenty of others who'll do without objections. Perhaps it might be more effective to audit property management companies that issued the directions and fine them double or triple what they might have saved from not doing it properly, or fine according to their profit to ensure there's a lasting impact on the bottom line.

Laborers are expendable for very large companies. They click the button to push more lead and they're back and writing again until it breaks again.

 

[mivey]

OK fair enough, I had been responding to member who was questioning the legality of it so when taken in context that was my point.

I know what you meant. I was just being picky for some reason.

 

[romex jockey]

Never gonna happen in a 'big box store diyer' nation , further the creation of new 'dumbed down' code rules none of them will ever read will grace our trade, as we assume the blame for them.....

~RJ~

 

[David Goodman]

Virtually any barrier to entry or regulation concerning business operations will increase cost. Suppliers will be forced to raise prices. Governmental entities will have to hire more people for enforcement. Selling wire, breakers, boxes and other electrical materials will shift from the big box stores to electricians willing to sell to consumers for a mark up unless they to are regulated also.

I understand the frustration of HO's and PM's doing unlicensed work in part because materials are readily available, but the consequences of having the government introduce more regulation are far reaching and have an undesirable ripple affect.

 

[hbiss]

Never gonna happen in a 'big box store diyer' nation...

~RJ~

You wouldn't have to have had government involvement back before the Big Boxes. Industry pressure would have been all that was needed. But now the genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. That's what we get for being complacent. You snooze, you lose.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

How many big industries purchase electrical products to install in their plants but don't necessarily have a "licensed" person that installs them, yet the installer is considered "qualified" to meet their safety policies? Laws concerning licensing in this kind of situation do vary from place to place, some places they may have to be licensed or at least working as apprentice under someone licensed. Other places may not require a license at all.