Liens and legal issues

[kwired]

I once had to threaten to cut every piece of wire out of the building that I installed to get paid. Not proud about that, probably wasn't ethical or legal, but it worked.

Kind of a heat of the moment kind of comment - what happens if you cut them and then they pay you - now they all need fixed, and at whose expense? Easier to lock out operation some sort of service or change passwords to software to disable it or thing of that sort of nature then to physically damage something and then have to restore it. Some services you even get to charge and collect a "reconnect fee" before you restore the service.

 

[JFletcher]

Kind of a heat of the moment kind of comment - what happens if you cut them and then they pay you - now they all need fixed, and at whose expense? Easier to lock out operation some sort of service or change passwords to software to disable it or thing of that sort of nature then to physically damage something and then have to restore it. Some services you even get to charge and collect a "reconnect fee" before you restore the service.

it was an empty threat, a bluff if you will. Being an avid poker player, I can make a guy fold a straight if he thinks I have a flush. And there are times when the odds are just not good to gamble with your investment/ money.

In that particular time and moment, I had very little to lose, and everything to gain. I am definitely not saying that the ends justify the means, nor would I recommend such actions to anyone else... that written, sometimes slime balls have to be dealt with at a level that they understand. Court cases or legal actions can be dealt with later... having to find another limited energy/ low voltage contractor NOW is a more immediate problem, and paying me what I was overdue was much easier and cheaper (not to mention right ) than hiring someone else.

 

[electrofelon]

it was an empty threat, a bluff if you will. Being an avid poker player, I can make a guy fold a straight if he thinks I have a flush. And there are times when the odds are just not good to gamble with your investment/ money.

In that particular time and moment, I had very little to lose, and everything to gain. I am definitely not saying that the ends justify the means, nor would I recommend such actions to anyone else... that written, sometimes slime balls have to be dealt with at a level that they understand. Court cases or legal actions can be dealt with later... having to find another limited energy/ low voltage contractor NOW is a more immediate problem, and paying me what I was overdue was much easier and cheaper (not to mention right ) than hiring someone else.

I thought about doing that, cut out whatever wire and equipment I can get to. The situation I am dealing with that I mentioned a while back in this thread is a small resi T&M job, drywall is up. I havnt specifically been told to not go there or turn in my key or anything so I thought about going there some night and cutting out whatever wire I can get, and take the new panel and meter socket. Right now though we are petitioning the court to for close on the lien. I'll keep yall posted.

 

[kwired]

I thought about doing that, cut out whatever wire and equipment I can get to. The situation I am dealing with that I mentioned a while back in this thread is a small resi T&M job, drywall is up. I havnt specifically been told to not go there or turn in my key or anything so I thought about going there some night and cutting out whatever wire I can get, and take the new panel and meter socket. Right now though we are petitioning the court to for close on the lien. I'll keep yall posted.

Unfortunately the way the law usually works on that is you can potentially be charged for B&E, trespassing, criminal mischief, etc. and on top of that be ordered to pay restitution and have to buy all that stuff you were never paid for a second time.

 

[electrofelon]

Unfortunately the way the law usually works on that is you can potentially be charged for B&E, trespassing, criminal mischief, etc. and on top of that be ordered to pay restitution and have to buy all that stuff you were never paid for a second time.

I don't see how that could be. As I haven't been paid I still own all the materials. If they don't want me to finish and pay me for anything, I'll take my stuff and leave.

 

[kwired]

I don't see how that could be. As I haven't been paid I still own all the materials. If they don't want me to finish and pay me for anything, I'll take my stuff and leave.

Kind of don't make sense does it? Some of the problem is most of what we do becomes a part of real estate. By coming in and taking or damaging your installation - you are taking or damaging the real estate that isn't yours.

You possibly could get away with it if you stated something in a contract in the payment terms section that said you could reclaim your components if payment terms weren't met. Still might end up going through some litigation process though.

 

[goldstar]

With all the CCTV's in operation today I wouldn't take the chance of removing any equipment for fear that I'd be recorded on TV. In addition I wouldn't advocate committing a crime of any type.

Having said that, what I'd really like to do in extreme situations like this is put on a pair of latex gloves, a ski mask and a hoodie walk by at 2:00 AM, pull the meter and smash it on the ground.:rant::rant::rant:

With my luck there would be a cop sitting across the street and I'd be responding to this thread from my jail cell :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Jerseydaze]

With all the CCTV's in operation today I wouldn't take the chance of removing any equipment for fear that I'd be recorded on TV. In addition I wouldn't advocate committing a crime of any type.

Having said that, what I'd really like to do in extreme situations like this is put on a pair of latex gloves, a ski mask and a hoodie walk by at 2:00 AM, pull the meter and smash it on the ground.:rant::rant::rant:

With my luck there would be a cop sitting across the street and I'd be responding to this thread from my jail cell :lol::lol::lol:

For what it’s worth I’ve only been beat for small amounts ever .I usually make myself such a pain in the ass that it’s worth paying me to get ride of me. If the owner is the real crook you can go in and get a free service just to make the guy uncomfortable .

 

[readydave8]

If the owner is the real crook you can go in and get a free service just to make the guy uncomfortable .

what free service?

 

[kwired]

what free service?

The one where you go in and demand it be free.

 

[hbiss]

I don't see how that could be. As I haven't been paid I still own all the materials. If they don't want me to finish and pay me for anything, I'll take my stuff and leave.

The law in most states is that if you install things like we do in this trade, as soon as you do it becomes part of the building and the property of the owner. If he hasn't paid you for it you have to take him to court and let a judge decide who's telling the truth. You can't use "self help" and go in and remove things. Doing so would be considered vandalism or burglary. You can't have anything in your contract that would allow such conduct either because your customer can't sign away his legal rights.

The only time you could get away with this is if you had material and tools stored on the customers premises. Then I believe you retain ownership during a dispute and have the right to go in and reclaim them, probably with a court order and police supervision.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

The law in most states is that if you install things like we do in this trade, as soon as you do it becomes part of the building and the property of the owner. If he hasn't paid you for it you have to take him to court and let a judge decide who's telling the truth. You can't use "self help" and go in and remove things. Doing so would be considered vandalism or burglary. You can't have anything in your contract that would allow such conduct either because your customer can't sign away his legal rights.

The only time you could get away with this is if you had material and tools stored on the customers premises. Then I believe you retain ownership during a dispute and have the right to go in and reclaim them, probably with a court order and police supervision.

-Hal

Kind of what I was trying to say earlier. And materials not yet installed are not a part of real estate yet. Once you fasten it, bury it, etc. it becomes a part of the real estate.

If you are selling a service, say maybe security system, phone, internet, even fire alarm you can disable link to outside world, disable software, change access codes, or otherwise interrupt the service being provided. Unfortunately most of us here just install electrical items but don't sell the electrical service, internet service, etc.

You could sell and install PLC and wiring and have PLC linked via internet so you have remote access to help remotely service/update software type issues. Failure to pay, you could easily remotely disable that software and when customer complains it doesn't work tell them you will be happy to fix it once you are paid what is still owed to you, but you can't just go in and physically remove what is now a part of their property.

 

[hbiss]

If you are selling a service, say maybe security system, phone, internet, even fire alarm you can disable link to outside world, disable software, change access codes, or otherwise interrupt the service being provided.

You could sell and install PLC and wiring and have PLC linked via internet so you have remote access to help remotely service/update software type issues. Failure to pay, you could easily remotely disable that software and when customer complains it doesn't work tell them you will be happy to fix it once you are paid what is still owed to you, but you can't just go in and physically remove what is now a part of their property.

Well, not really. If you are a POCO, internet, cable, phone or cell phone company that charges monthly for the service then, yes you are allowed to discontinue the service for non-payment.

However accessing equipment like computers, phone systems or alarm systems, even those that you just installed, for illicit reasons can get you charged with computer tampering, computer trespass and unauthorized use of a computer and as much as a first degree felony as well as a federal crime.

It's real tempting, when you have remote access to your customer's equipment to try something like that. DON'T! If you are in a dispute with a customer and they find that you altered their system you just gave them a gift. Attorneys aren't stupid and the first thing their attorney will do is press for criminal charges and his client just won.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Well, not really. If you are a POCO, internet, cable, phone or cell phone company that charges monthly for the service then, yes you are allowed to discontinue the service for non-payment.

However accessing equipment like computers, phone systems or alarm systems, even those that you just installed, for illicit reasons can get you charged with computer tampering, computer trespass and unauthorized use of a computer and as much as a first degree felony as well as a federal crime.

It's real tempting, when you have remote access to your customer's equipment to try something like that. DON'T! If you are in a dispute with a customer and they find that you altered their system you just gave them a gift. Attorneys aren't stupid and the first thing their attorney will do is press for criminal charges and his client just won.

-Hal

I imagine there are technicalities that need addressed. I also imagine most cases I can think of the provider doesn't exactly "hack" the user to disable service but rather denies a necessary supply line from their end in one way or another.

Sometimes the on site equipment is owned by the service provider in some way - look at service contracts/agreements, and in those cases they may have the right to remotely access it and manipulate things. POCO usually owns their meter on the premises. If it has the ability to interrupt service via remote command they likely have the right to do so. They also have wording in their service contracts/agreements that user had to agree to in order to receive service, that states what can happen in the case of non payment, plus usually some sort of easement involved that gives them physical access, this would allow them access to physically disconnect in cases where that is the method necessary.

In the instance I mentioned earlier with the PLC and having remote access - maybe not totally legal, depending on contracts and agreements. But at same time might not be that difficult to get away with either. The burden is on the user to prove you did something wrong. Unless they have in house guys that are able to figure this out (and most that do wouldn't necessarily need your service) their best option is to come to you, and you will gladly fix their problem once you are paid for past due items. Or they can go someone that provides similar service to you and they possibly figure out what is going on and either fix the problem without telling them exactly what happened or even give them some story whether true or not that they can't access certain protected items and would have to start from scratch with new software program, and then find later out they aren't getting paid either:blink:

 

[petersonra]

I just can't get over how all these laws are designed to protect the slime balls and very few are designed to protect us tradesmen from these predators.

the laws work pretty well if you have signed contracts and do even a little bit of background checking on potential customers. A D&B check is pretty cheap insurance.

just googling them can tell you a lot about the guy.

 

[gadfly56]

Kind of what I was trying to say earlier. And materials not yet installed are not a part of real estate yet. Once you fasten it, bury it, etc. it becomes a part of the real estate.

If you are selling a service, say maybe security system, phone, internet, even fire alarm you can disable link to outside world, disable software, change access codes, or otherwise interrupt the service being provided. Unfortunately most of us here just install electrical items but don't sell the electrical service, internet service, etc.

You could sell and install PLC and wiring and have PLC linked via internet so you have remote access to help remotely service/update software type issues. Failure to pay, you could easily remotely disable that software and when customer complains it doesn't work tell them you will be happy to fix it once you are paid what is still owed to you, but you can't just go in and physically remove what is now a part of their property.

If you pull that trick, and someone dies in a house fire because you disabled the on-board dialer or the notification circuits, I wouldn't have any sympathy for the grinder they'll put you through. In NJ, once installed, it's illegal to reduce the level of fire protection on a premises unless you jump through an awful lot of hoops.

 

[kwired]

If you pull that trick, and someone dies in a house fire because you disabled the on-board dialer or the notification circuits, I wouldn't have any sympathy for the grinder they'll put you through. In NJ, once installed, it's illegal to reduce the level of fire protection on a premises unless you jump through an awful lot of hoops.

How does that work then when they don't pay the phone or internet bill and that necessary service for notification is disconnected for non payment? Or even electric bill?

 

[gadfly56]

How does that work then when they don't pay the phone or internet bill and that necessary service for notification is disconnected for non payment? Or even electric bill?

All very excellent questions, and probably a super opportunity for some lawyer to make a mint.

 

[hbiss]

How does that work then when they don't pay the phone or internet bill and that necessary service for notification is disconnected for non payment? Or even electric bill?

Always you are given ample written warning that your service will be disconnected. Usually phone and cable and cell companies will always allow 911 even if your service is cut.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Always you are given ample written warning that your service will be disconnected. Usually phone and cable and cell companies will always allow 911 even if your service is cut.

-Hal

The mentioned security or fire alarm system(s) likely call a monitoring company and not 911.

Don't pay your satellite TV or most internet service providers and they shut you off in one way or another. May not do so until you are 60 or 90 days or so past due but when they shut you off you have no useful functionality. I did find out one time with satellite TV that all the "paid ad" channels or whatever you want to call them are still viewable after they stop your service.

Cell phones are able to dial 911, even if not activated on a carrier. Some land line phones I suppose may still be able to dial 911 even if no service is subscribed or active. My observation with land lines around here is if you have no service you have no service at all. Haven't actually had the land line phone ever shut off for non payment, been to places with land lines but occupant uses cell phones and doesn't subscribe to land line service - those seem to be totally inactive.