Light switch installed at bath tub

[dlhoule]

Again?

Again?

Why do people hate home inspectors again?

Do you mean some people stopped?:grin:

 

[iwire]

I was looking at the 2008 ROP and came across this.

9-87 Log #82 NEC-P09 Final Action: Reject
(404.4)

Submitter: Joe Riley, City of Arlington

Recommendation: Revise as follows:

Switches shall not be installed within wet locations or directly over a bathtub or shower stall measuring 900 m (3 ft) horizontally and vertically to the ceiling from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

Substantiation: Tub and shower spaces for devices is a little vague and up to interpretation. Consistency of electrical device and equipment locations with other parts of the code such as 410.4(D) only makes sense in ensuring electrical safety.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The proposed requirement is excessive. This section has always restricted itself to applications where the switch might be actually subject to a water stream. It never had to do with the issue of a reaching exposure from the tub or shower area. This is intentionally different from receptacles that extend a power circuit (through the attached cord) a significant distance.

Number Eligible to Vote: 11

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10

Ballot Not Returned: 1 de Vega, H.

It never had to do with the issue of a reaching exposure from the tub or shower area.

 

[hillbilly]

I know some people don't think that you can get shocked by a general-use snap switch with wet hands. I believe that the man that called me out to look at his garbage disposal switch because it was shocking him when using it with wet hands wasn't making it up. And I don't think he was nuts. I replaced the switch, check the wiring, and told him not to use it with wet hands. He hasn't had anymore problems with it.

If the grounded switch strap (or metal box) become energized, and
the branch circuit equipment ground has too much resistance (loose connection, etc.) and wont allow enough current to flow and trip the branch circuit breaker .

....and....

The metal sink (or bathtub) or plumbing is grounded...

It's entirely possible to get "shocked" by the switch (even if it has a plastic cover plate if the screws are metallic) .

You would have to be touching the grounded plumbing or sink (or standing
in the tub) at the same time you touched the switch.

ps.....I would never put a switch over a bathtub (with or without a shower)...code or no.

Just a opinion
steve

 

[76nemo]

Thanks Steve, I agree, but I hope this doesn't carry the arguement further.
We are all entitled to our own doings, this one is definetly up for debate.
Maybe better off left alone. To each their own.

 

[tom baker]

perhaps you didnt read well. I stated it is "over the tub" and a "light switch". Perhaps that is not enough information for you. I thought this might be a helpful site. Perhaps not.

rob46250-
One comment about the replies, we have all learned the more I know, the less I know (about the NEC). With the NEC its all about context. There is a difference between a tub and shower area. Thats why the second post asked for a picture.
And the ROP posted its about a water stream not reaching the switch.
Also keep in mind the NEC is the minimum standard.
If I had a business wiring houses, and I wired to the NEC, I would be out of business after that first house.
For example:
Can the bedroom light switch be on the opposite wall, 7 feet from the floor?
Do hall wall lights require 3 way switching?
Can I install 25 receptacles on a 15 ampere circuit?

 

[rpm]

Okay..this is a jetted tub with now shower. The light,and exhuast fan switch are directly above the tube fixtures. So, are you saying this is safe and allowed to be standing in a tub full of water and be able to turn a light switch and fan on or off. Sounds extremely unsafe. Do you have a code reference?

Assuming that The word 'now' in the first sentence is supposed to be 'new' then I think Article 404.4 in the 2005 AND 2008 NEC applies to this situation.

 

[georgeswe]

............. Hmm, well maybe it is for a pump or something ............ Just change the switch out to a properly rated NEMA 3R EXO and problem solved.

 

[wirebender]

Assuming that The word 'now' in the first sentence is supposed to be 'new' then I think Article 404.4 in the 2005 AND 2008 NEC applies to this situation.

I think the "now" was supposed to be a "no".

 

[rpm]

You may be right about the 'no'. Nevertheless, I wouldn't have put it there and, if I were the electrical inspector (assuming there was an inspection other than the poster) I would have caught it on the rough and had it moved. Too many scenarios can be conjured up where that thing can be dangerous. For example: A candlelit bath with bubbly, a metal switch box with no egc, a frayed wire and a fault. Bather wants to turn on the light before she/he/they get out of the tub and touches the cover screw.

 

[George Stolz]

RPM, I would fail the lack of an EGC on a new work inspection first.

 

[wirebender]

Bather wants to turn on the light before she/he/they get out of the tub and touches the cover screw.

Bather steps out of tub dripping wet on tile floor and touches cover screw on switch located 3 or 4 feet away. Same shock.

 

[iwire]

I wouldn't have put it there

A candlelit bath with bubbly, a metal switch box with no egc, a frayed wire and a fault.

If you and I where 'putting it there' wouldn't we ground the device strap on the switch as required by the NEC?

if I were the electrical inspector (assuming there was an inspection other than the poster) I would have caught it on the rough and had it moved.

And if I was the electrician I could very well say no.

Inspectors can not (well there not supposed to) make up rules as they see fit.

 

[mattsilkwood]

ok guys this is a little off topic but as far as water being a good conductor. what happens if you plug a hair dryer into a gfci rec fill the sink turn on said hair dryer and throw it in the water? anyone?

 

[JohnJ0906]

ok guys this is a little off topic but as far as water being a good conductor. what happens if you plug a hair dryer into a gfci rec fill the sink turn on said hair dryer and throw it in the water? anyone?

Plastic or metal piping? :wink:
Plastic piping may not provide a ground path, therefore the GFCI may not trip.

Joe Tedesco just recently posted a video of a submerged hairdryer "blowing" away, without tripping the GFCI.

 

[mattsilkwood]

Plastic piping may not provide a ground path, therefore the GFCI may not trip.

exactly what i was getting at. and i dont know about the rest of the country but in my neck of the woods it is all but unheard of to use metal piping in a new residential job. granted older homes still have a lot of copper and steel but alot of people go back with plastic when it needs repaired. so imho the switch is totaly safe if you can reach it.

 

[rpm]

If you and I where 'putting it there' wouldn't we ground the device strap on the switch as required by the NEC?



And if I was the electrician I could very well say no.

Inspectors can not (well there not supposed to) make up rules as they see fit.

I've seen many 'bath remodels' where the wiring is old with no egc, it's been moved to a more convenient location (most likely with a flying splice in the wall somewhere) and the circuit is fed from an old Zinsco 'no trip' breaker. So called maintenance guys in apartment complexes and all around GC's are famous for this type work in my neck of the woods. Permitted work by a licensed EC is something to be avoided at all costs unless the power or fire department has mandated it.

 

[rpm]

If you and I where 'putting it there' wouldn't we ground the device strap on the switch as required by the NEC?



And if I was the electrician I could very well say no.

Inspectors can not (well there not supposed to) make up rules as they see fit.

Last sentence of 404.4, 2008 NEC: "Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly." Now, if I'm sitting in that tub, in water, and reach up to flip that switch on or off am I not wet while I'm doing it? My current location is wet. Even if article 100 doesn't list a tub in their wet or damp locations I believe CMP 1 missed the boat. I still maintain I would not put a switch there.

 

[electricmanscott]

Last sentence of 404.4, 2008 NEC: "Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly." Now, if I'm sitting in that tub, in water, and reach up to flip that switch on or off am I not wet while I'm doing it? My current location is wet. Even if article 100 doesn't list a tub in their wet or damp locations I believe CMP 1 missed the boat. I still maintain I would not put a switch there.

Oh boy, that is a stretch...

 

[quogueelectric]

ok guys this is a little off topic but as far as water being a good conductor. what happens if you plug a hair dryer into a gfci rec fill the sink turn on said hair dryer and throw it in the water? anyone?

If it is run in pex just throw some ice and tequila in there and you will have a margarita in 3 minutes.:wink:,:grin:

 

[infinity]

Last sentence of 404.4, 2008 NEC: "Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly." Now, if I'm sitting in that tub, in water, and reach up to flip that switch on or off am I not wet while I'm doing it? My current location is wet. Even if article 100 doesn't list a tub in their wet or damp locations I believe CMP 1 missed the boat. I still maintain I would not put a switch there.

With that interpretation I'm glad you're not inspecting my work.:grin: