Lighting branch circuits with 30A CB in panelboard, Industrial Operating facility.

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augie47 said:
I think your " .... " fails to highlight the "lighting units with heavy duty lampholders".......
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You'll notice there is the word "OR" in the section. So, let's try this:

210.52(B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders in other than a dwelling unit(s) or utilization equipment in any occupancy.
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So let's take out the first OPTION:

210.52(B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply ..... or utilization equipment in any occupancy.
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Now take out the 'or' since we've eliminated the first OPTION, and that leaves us with::

210.52(B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply ......utilization equipment in any occupancy.
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Since luminaires fall under the definition of 'utilization equipment'....
 
480sparky said:
Since luminaires fall under the definition of 'utilization equipment'....
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Doesn't work for me, 480. They went through the trouble of addressing a particular type of light fixture. That was before the word "or" was placed in the sentence. If the intent was to allow a 30 amp circuit to supply any utilization of any description in any occupancy, then why would they have singled out that particular type of light fixture? They could have dropped that part of the sentence, and used only the stuff after the "or." But they didn't. That tells me that no other type of light fixture is allowed on a 30 amp circuit.

I agree with those who said that the wording is in need of modernization. But for now I will invoke "Charlie's Rule," and say that the words are what the words are.
 
sameguy said:
220.14E is that in the code book?
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Yes. It tells us how to calculate the load for a heavy-duty lampholder. But that is not relevant to the present discussion. It does not help us resolve the question of whether a 30 amp circuit can supply LEDs.

 
I agree with Charlie, et al. The utilization equipment is anything but the "fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders".
 
charlie b said:

Doesn't work for me, 480. They went through the trouble of addressing a particular type of light fixture. That was before the word "or" was placed in the sentence. If the intent was to allow a 30 amp circuit to supply any utilization of any description in any occupancy, then why would they have singled out that particular type of light fixture? They could have dropped that part of the sentence, and used only the stuff after the "or." But they didn't. That tells me that no other type of light fixture is allowed on a 30 amp circuit.

I agree with those who said that the wording is in need of modernization. But for now I will invoke "Charlie's Rule," and say that the words are what the words are.
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Well, you're reading the same words I am. So I guess we'll just disagree. But I've done plenty of LED retrofits on 30a breakers and not one inspector has said a peep. In fact, sometimes I've combined two existing 30a circuits onto one because the current flow still only totals 20 amps with the new LEDs.
 
charlie b said:
I agree with David on this one. The types of lighting fixtures that are allowed on a 30 amp circuit do not match the types you plan to install. But let me pose two questions:
  1. Is there anything in the literature from LED fixture manufacturer that sets a voltage requirement?
  2. Why did the subcontractor choose to use 30 amp circuits in the first place (i.e., why not 20's)?

My suggestion is replacing the 30 amp breakers with 20 amp breakers. First you have to verify that the load on each circuit is 16 amps or less, but that should not be a problem with LEDs.
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The LEDs have universal voltage up to 277VAC. Not sure why Contractor used 30 instead of 20. It will be problematic to replace one for one since some circuits are loaded up to 24A.
The NFPA never bothered to define "heavy-duty" or "lamp holder", so I have to believe it really isn't that big of a deal.
This is an industrial facility with highly qualified electricians - I don't see a safety issue except to verify switching and motion sensors are rated for 30A.
 
Isaiah said:
The NFPA never bothered to define "heavy-duty" or "lamp holder", so I have to believe it really isn't that big of a deal.
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They never bothered to define "conductor" or "motor" or "switch" either, but those are kind of a big deal. I'd say that heavy-duty lampholders are a big enough deal that the NEC tells you that 30A, 40A and 50A circuits can only supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders and only in other than dwelling units.
 
charlie b said:
Yes. It tells us how to calculate the load for a heavy-duty lampholder. But that is not relevant to the present discussion. It does not help us resolve the question of whether a 30 amp circuit can supply LEDs.
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If the LED load on the lighting circuit is more than 16 amps and in continuous duty, thus needing to be classified as continuous, and thus using the 125 percent rule, such as in a factory or a store, would that then not require the use of 30 amp rather than 20 amp? But would also require relays rather than switches for turning on and off...
 
david luchini said:
They never bothered to define "conductor" or "motor" or "switch" either, but those are kind of a big deal. I'd say that heavy-duty lampholders are a big enough deal that the NEC tells you that 30A, 40A and 50A circuits can only supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders and only in other than dwelling units.
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Since no one, including yourself, can define 'heavy duty lamp holder' I argue the High Bay LED's meet this criteria and also meet 240.5.
The design is therefore safe and will remain 'as-is'.
 
Adamjamma said:
If the LED load on the lighting circuit is more than 16 amps and in continuous duty, thus needing to be classified as continuous, and thus using the 125 percent rule, such as in a factory or a store, would that then not require the use of 30 amp rather than 20 amp?
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No. You have the option of moving some of the LEDs to a different circuit, so that any single circuit does not have more than 16 amps of continuous load.

 
charlie b said:
I agree with those who said that the wording is in need of modernization. But for now I will invoke "Charlie's Rule," and say that the words are what the words are.
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Seems to me "Charlie's Rule" agrees with 480sparky. You are reading the word "other" into the sentence, as in "or other utilization equipment". Without that word other, the second clause of the "or" phrase allows any utilization equipment to be supplied by a 30 amp branch circuit.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Isaiah said:
Since no one, including yourself, can define 'heavy duty lamp holder' I argue the High Bay LED's meet this criteria and also meet 240.5.
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I can begin to define "heavy duty lamp holder" by saying that it has to hold a lamp. Your LED fixtures do not. Then I would say it has to be "heavy duty." I am willing to bet that your LED fixtures do not have that phrase on their packaging or manufacturer's instructions. So I will have to disagree with your assertion that "the High Bay LED's meet this criteria." Also, 240.5 is not relevant. We are addressing protection of the branch circuit conductors (which are OK, as they are #10s) and the fixtures themselves. We have not yet heard whether the manufacturer allows use of a 30 amp circuit.
Isaiah said:
The design is therefore safe and will remain 'as-is'.
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"Safe" is not your call. "Remain as-is" is not mine.


 
The NEC does define heavy-duty lampholder right in Article 210:

210.21 Outlet Devices. Outlet devices shall have an am-
pere rating that is not less than the load to be served and
shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B).
(A) Lampholders. Where connected to a branch circuit
having a rating in excess of 20 amperes, lampholders shall
be of the heavy-duty type. A heavy-duty lampholder shall
have a rating of not less than 660 watts if of the admedium
type, or not less than 750 watts if of any other type.
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It seems to fall back to the reasoning behind your question.
Not sure who you are trying to convince one way or the other since it seems your mind is made up :)
So far you have two engineers, an inspector, and an electrician that feel the installation does not meet the literal wording of the NEC albeit a grey area (IMHO).
 
I agree with 480,
1) no lamp holder so that is mute, only thing left is utilization.
30A for the win.
 
The #10AWG wiring is protected. The manufacturer will allow a 30A circuit per 240.5. The LEDs are rated above the wattage requirements mentioned in 210.21 - but since LED's are not a true lamp this section doesn't really apply.
 
augie47 said:
It seems to fall back to the reasoning behind your question.
Not sure who you are trying to convince one way or the other since it seems your mind is made up :)
So far you have two engineers, an inspector, and an electrician that feel the installation does not meet the literal wording of the NEC albeit a grey area (IMHO).
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Grey area indeed. I am not convinced because no one has presented a strong enough argument to sway my opinion.
 
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