Lighting branch circuits with 30A CB in panelboard, Industrial Operating facility.

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Isaiah said:
- but since LED's are not a true lamp this section doesn't really apply.
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You are misreading 210.21. It says the branch circuits shall supply ONLY the loads listed by circuit size. If the lighting unit doesn't have a lampholder, then the 30A circuit cannot supply it.
 
The drama continues! We have two conflicting interpretations of the same statement:

No heavy-duty lampholder, so no allowance.

No heavy-duty lampholder, so no restriction.

Tune in tomorrow for the exciting conclusion! :)




I wonder if calling them fixture wires might be throwing a monkey into the wrench.
 
One could also argue that since the manufacturer rates the luminaries as acceptable for 30A circuits, they are the LED equivalent of a heavy duty lamp holder.
 
retirede said:
One could also argue that since the manufacturer rates the luminaries as acceptable for 30A circuits, they are the LED equivalent of a heavy duty lamp holder.
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I missed that. If the maker says so, it should be complaint, regardless of what it's called.
 
Let’s think about this a second.......................

Are the led fixture’s lead wires of a gauge that is 1/10th the size of what would be required for the 30 amp circuit?...........

I am led to believe that elsewhere in the code this is allowed as a short tap (usually in larger sizes) And I also believe that this 1/10th value is some kind of agreed upon safe value if a short circuit should occur the minimum conductor size would effectively trip an OCPD.

See where I’m going with this?

So now 1/10 of a #10 conductor would be what a 30awg? Well maybe it would be more like a conductor that could handle 1/10 the current or in other words 3 amps.

What y’all say to this idea?
 
mopowr steve said:
Let’s think about this a second.......................

Are the led fixture’s lead wires of a gauge that is 1/10th the size of what would be required for the 30 amp circuit?...........

I am led to believe that elsewhere in the code this is allowed as a short tap (usually in larger sizes) And I also believe that this 1/10th value is some kind of agreed upon safe value if a short circuit should occur the minimum conductor size would effectively trip an OCPD.

See where I’m going with this?

So now 1/10 of a #10 conductor would be what a 30awg? Well maybe it would be more like a conductor that could handle 1/10 the current or in other words 3 amps.

What y’all say to this idea?
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That 1/10 language is in the section for feeder taps, this is a branch circuit tap.



The heavy duty lampholder language has been in the NEC for a long time, probably back to when you saw a lot of mogul based incandescent lampholders for higher output luminaires.

Then came HID's, the rule still made sense and was left pretty much the same.

When HID's started to be replaced with fluorescent tube type fixtures, we lost the "heavy duty lampholders". Code never changed. I don't believe they intended these luminaires to apply to this allowance.

Now we are replacing luminaires in such locations with LED's, I still don't think they intended to apply that allowance.
 
kwired said:
The heavy duty lampholder language has been in the NEC for a long time, probably back to when you saw a lot of mogul based incandescent lampholders for higher output luminaires.

Then came HID's, the rule still made sense and was left pretty much the same.

When HID's started to be replaced with fluorescent tube type fixtures, we lost the "heavy duty lampholders". Code never changed. I don't believe they intended these luminaires to apply to this allowance.

Now we are replacing luminaires in such locations with LED's, I still don't think they intended to apply that allowance.
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I agree that for this code section the NEC hasn't caught up but it doesn't change the fact that you cannot use these LED's on a 30 amp circuit. The current wording is clear, the 30 amp circuit can supply "fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders", other fixed lighting units without heavy duty lampholders cannot be used.
 
infinity said:
I agree that for this code section the NEC hasn't caught up but it doesn't change the fact that you cannot use these LED's on a 30 amp circuit. The current wording is clear, the 30 amp circuit can supply "fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders", other fixed lighting units without heavy duty lampholders cannot be used.
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Doesn't need to catch up, no heavy duty lampholders are used on either the linear fluorescents or the LED's. Unless they want to allow more than 20 amp circuit to supply them.
 
kwired said:
Doesn't need to catch up, no heavy duty lampholders are used on either the linear fluorescents or the LED's. Unless they want to allow more than 20 amp circuit to supply them.
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By catch up I mean we're using LED's as replacements for the older fixtures with heavy-duty lampholders on 30 amp circuits. There should be an allowance for this otherwise the OCPD's need to be changed.
 
infinity said:
By catch up I mean we're using LED's as replacements for the older fixtures with heavy-duty lampholders on 30 amp circuits. There should be an allowance for this otherwise the OCPD's need to be changed.
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For retrofits the LED's likely draw enough less you could put a 20 amp breaker on an old 50 amp circuit and it wouldn't be overloaded.

OP seems to have a new installation designed on 30 amp circuits though.
 
kwired said:
For retrofits the LED's likely draw enough less you could put a 20 amp breaker on an old 50 amp circuit and it wouldn't be overloaded.

OP seems to have a new installation designed on 30 amp circuits though.
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I agree. Do you agree that what the OP has described is not code complaint, nor would it be in a retro fit installation?
 
Isaiah said:
The manufacturer will allow a 30A circuit per 240.5.
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This makes no sense at all. 240.5 has nothing to do with the present discussion. It's about flexible cords and cables and fixture wires. We are addressing branch circuit breaker settings.

As I mentioned twice already, can you tell me that the manufacturer's instructions include the statement that the LEDs can be used with a 30 amp circuit?

 
retirede said:
One could also argue that since the manufacturer rates the luminaries as acceptable for 30A circuits, they are the LED equivalent of a heavy duty lamp holder.
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Nobody has said that the manufacturer rates the fixtures this way (not yet, anyway). So let's not presume what is not yet known.

 
charlie b said:
That's a statement of requirements, not a definition.
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Call it what you want (I agree by definition is not a definition). :)

It still doesn't change the fact that if it doesn't meet the requirement in 210.21 then it isn't a heavy-duty lampholder.
 
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