lighting outlet

[al hildenbrand]

. . .it says light OUTLET. . .

From the 2005 NEC

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required

Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Dwelling Units In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Easy fix if there is a neutral in the switch box, just install a switch/receptacle combination device and switch the receptacle. If there is only a feed and switch leg, well, nevermind.

Roger

Why fix whats not broke ? Like it or not that fan has a light outlet.Really dont think many want a ceiling light or light kit.Cheap on rough in to make a half hot or even just switch a duplex.Last thing i want is one switch that works fan and light.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

My book says a "wall switch controlled lighting outlet". I don't see how a fan without a light is a lighting outlet.

It does not say you must use it for a light fixture.It says light outlet and that is the box.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I recently failed a final inspection on a new home due to the fact that we installed a ceiling fan w/o a light kit in a bedroom, this fan is controlled by a switch. My thought is that we installed a lighting outlet ,as required, I can not find a code reference that requires a light fixture to be installed, any thoughts?

thanks, pjg

Exsplain the code to him and he should pass it.He wont like it but it is legal

 

[roger]

Jim and Celtic, if the fan had not been installed I would agree, but, when the fan was hung the outlet is no longer a "Lighting Outlet".

If you rough in for a future AC unit and use this future rough in for a permanent irrigation pump at some time, the rough in is gone and you will have to do it again if the AC unit ever comes into play.

Just for clarity, I agree that a "Lighting Outlet" is all that's required, (I have always said this) but it must be there at the time of a final as a "Lighting Outlet", not used for something else.


Roger

 

[celtic]

Jim and Celtic, if the fan had not been installed I would agree, but, when the fan was hung the outlet is no longer a "Lighting Outlet".



Just for clarity, I agree that a "Lighting Outlet" is all that's required, (I have always said this) but it must be there at the time of a final as a "Lighting Outlet", not used for something else.

The CF has provisions for a light - requirement met.

 

[roger]

Celtic, I would agree if there is some way for the appliance or fan to be recognized as a luminaire in definition, but simply because it is equipped for a light kit doesn't make it a luminaire.

As a matter of fact, I would like to side with you and Jim, but I can see the Inspectors reason for tagging it.

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Celtic, I would agree if there is some way for the appliance or fan to be recognized as a luminaire in definition, but simply because it is equipped for a light kit doesn't make it a luminaire.

As a matter of fact, I would like to side with you and Jim, but I can see the Inspectors reason for tagging it.

Roger

As long as that fan can take a light kit then there still is a light outlet.It is at the bottom of the fan.You lost nothing by letting a fan get in the middle of original box and the box under the fan.Now if it is not light kit adaptable then you have a point.If the ceiling box had a blank you would call it a light outlet.To use it you must remove the blank.So now i must remove a fan.Not likely but i never took away your light outlet.

 

[George Stolz]

As long as that fan can take a light kit then there still is a light outlet.It is at the bottom of the fan.

Agreed. The required lighting outlet is installed at the base of the ceiling fan, IMO.

 

[roger]

As long as that fan can take a light kit then there still is a light outlet.

Jim, show me some back up to this statement by some recognized listing or manufacturer data and I'll will definitely agree, I would even go as far as saying the Inspector would too.

The Inspectors interpretation on this outweighs yours, this is not a case of an Inspector making up rules, it is a difference of interpretation.

Once again, show me some back up to your opinion, I would like to have it incase this comes up in the future.

Roger

 

[infinity]

Jim, show me some back up to this statement by some recognized listing or manufacturer data and I'll will definitely agree, I would even go as far as saying the Inspector would too.

The Inspectors interpretation on this outweighs yours, this is not a case of an Inspector making up rules, it is a difference of interpretation.

Once again, show me some back up to your opinion, I would like to have it incase this comes up in the future.

Roger

I agree Roger. This isn't a black and white issue and the inspector gets to make the call. I think that both arguments are legitimate but either way the inspector is right.

 

[celtic]

Celtic, I would agree if there is some way for the appliance or fan to be recognized as a luminaire in definition, but simply because it is equipped for a light kit doesn't make it a luminaire.

Just because an outlet is able to supply either a lamp or a fixture doesn't make it a luminaire either.

There is no provision that a luminaire actually BE installed, just that a luminaire be ABLE to be installed.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Ok ,look at it this way.Inspector sees a box in ceiling thats controled by a wall switch on rough inspection.So far its good.Now on final he will be happy (or should be) with a blank.Now the trim guy adds a fan.Did he REMOVE the light outlet or simply use it for something else.Can you still install a light fixture ? Sure you can.Either to the fan with a kit or remove fan first.The fan instructions tell you how to do this.Had the light kit been installed on the fan he would been happy,so where is the problem ? You still can add the light kit anytime you want it.Sorry but i am usually the one saying codes are gray but this is black and white.

Inspector: Jim i dont see a light outlet. Jim: look under the fan.Its still there.

 

[roger]

Sorry guys, unless the "fan" is a "luminaire" the inspector is right. (not wrong)

I would say many inspectors would pass it, but the ones who wouldn't have a good point and argument.

If the fixture were installed on the fan I'm sure there would not be an argument.

Go figure

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Sorry guys, unless the "fan" is a "luminaire" the inspector is right. (not wrong)

I would say many inspectors would pass it, but the ones who wouldn't have a good point and argument.

If the fixture were installed on the fan I'm sure there would not be an argument.

Go figure

Roger

Roger , the fan is not a luminaire and a luminaire is not required.An outlet is what is required and its still there.It does not say what kind of outlet or where it is to be located.How about a wall sconse.Inspector knows if there is no light kit now it likely never will have one but same applies to the blank.

 

[roger]

Jim, below is where the inspector has a strong argument supporting his stance.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

The fan prevents this doesn't it.

Roger

 

[JohnE]

Just because an outlet is able to supply either a lamp or a fixture doesn't make it a luminaire either.

There is no provision that a luminaire actually BE installed, just that a luminaire be ABLE to be installed.

I agree with this statement.

 

[ceknight]

Roger , the fan is not a luminaire and a luminaire is not required.An outlet is what is required and its still there.It does not say what kind of outlet or where it is to be located.

I'm with Roger on this one, because NEC defines a lighting outlet according to its intended usage.

When you install a CF w/o light kit, you have signalled your intention that the outlet is not for a luminaire. It no longer matters that there's a switched outlet there that can be used for a luminaire, what matters is you've declared that the outlet is not intended for a luminaire.

The inspector is, IMO, quite justified in reading that intent and reacting accordingly.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I suspect a lot of the differing opinion, in part, centers on what the local AHJ will allow, depending upon his/er relationship with individual contractors, and just how much work really is done after a permit is finaled (read: work the inspector is willing to sign off on without ever looking at it).

The State of Minnesota Electrical Licensing and Inspections has long said, "For inspection of completed jobs, all receptacles, plates, and lighting fixtures (suitable for the location) must be installed."

If the luminaire has not been supplied for me to install, and I am to complete the job, I put up something like a porcelain lamp holder, not a blank cover.

Then I, or others, by separate permit, can later install the luminaire(s).

I show my intent for the lighting outlet by what I have installed, or not installed, at the time of completion, to the lighting outlet.

 

[charlie b]

I find myself in a rare position, that of agreeing with Al and disagreeing with George. In my view, once you install a fan, it is no longer correct to call the outlet a ?lighting outlet.? You can change the outlet to a ?lighting outlet,? by removing the fan. That action would alter the house?s wiring in the same manner as rewiring a ?general purpose receptacle? to turn it into a ?wall switched receptacle.?

And contrary to George?s statement (sorry, George), I submit that the bottom portion of the fan is not, and can never be, an ?outlet,? regardless of whether it is designed for the attachment of a luminaire. My reason is that the fan is not part of the premises wiring system, so the fan fails to meet the definition of ?outlet.?