Lobster tank GFCI protection?

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Ingenieur said:
you could not be more wrong
how do all these egc become 'missing'?
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Thank you for asking me.

1. We started out as 2 wire plug and socket with metal framed tools and appliances. People were getting killed when they faulted to ground and simultaneously body Z was low enough. Mandating 3 wire outlets was a start- however it did not take care of the countless metal framed tools still in existence. Still 2 wire and still with the ability to kill.

2. Unqualified personnel working on pools leaving equipment without an EGC.

3. Ground pins breaking off. I wave seen plenty of vending machines with broken ground pins. Plenty of contractor extension cords missing a ground pin. Iwire who has decades of experience in commercial has seen countless broken or missing 3rd pins on deli slicers, toasters, presses, refrigerators, cookers, ect... Abuse from constant plugging and unplugging, cleaning crews moving appliances while plugged in ect resulting in the ground pin breaking off. Reason being the hot and neutral pins usually bend, but the ground snaps off when sharply pulled at an angle. Truth is north American NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 plugs (among other NEMAs) loose ground pins far more often when abuses then live and neutral.

4. People cut off ground pins so they can use a 2 wire extension cord or be able to plug into older 2 wire outlets.

5. Grounding adapters which used to be as common as door knobs.

6. Lifting the ground on audio equipment for noise reduction.

7. Frayed and damaged cords on power tools. Its not long before a painter's/plumbers/carpenters/ect drill cord becomes mangled and covered in duct tape repairs. If the EGC becomes severed no one knows about it.

8. NM cable used underground or wet location conduit where the EGC corrodes- though I'm not sure how much this has played a role in missing EGCs.

9. Lets not forget things like old radios and the like that actually used a hot chassis or referenced through the "neutral". Though again I don't know how much this actually played a role in electrocutions.


In short we

1. Made a huge mistake no mandating EGC earlier like the UK

2. Many people often have no idea what that that third pin is for and don't care. If it works why worry? GFCIs are a cheap solution to a very real problem of no grounding for what ever reason it be.
 
mbrooke said:
Thank you for asking me.

1. We started out as 2 wire plug and socket with metal framed tools and appliances. People were getting killed when they faulted to ground and simultaneously body Z was low enough. Mandating 3 wire outlets was a start- however it did not take care of the countless metal framed tools still in existence. Still 2 wire and still with the ability to kill.

2. Unqualified personnel working on pools leaving equipment without an EGC.

3. Ground pins breaking off. I wave seen plenty of vending machines with broken ground pins. Plenty of contractor extension cords missing a ground pin. Iwire who has decades of experience in commercial has seen countless broken or missing 3rd pins on deli slicers, toasters, presses, refrigerators, cookers, ect... Abuse from constant plugging and unplugging, cleaning crews moving appliances while plugged in ect resulting in the ground pin breaking off. Reason being the hot and neutral pins usually bend, but the ground snaps off when sharply pulled at an angle. Truth is north American NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 plugs (among other NEMAs) loose ground pins far more often when abuses then live and neutral.

4. People cut off ground pins so they can use a 2 wire extension cord or be able to plug into older 2 wire outlets.

5. Grounding adapters which used to be as common as door knobs.

6. Lifting the ground on audio equipment for noise reduction.

7. Frayed and damaged cords on power tools. Its not long before a painter's/plumbers/carpenters/ect drill cord becomes mangled and covered in duct tape repairs. If the EGC becomes severed no one knows about it.

8. NM cable used underground or wet location conduit where the EGC corrodes- though I'm not sure how much this has played a role in missing EGCs.


In short we

1. Made a huge mistake no mandating EGC earlier like the UK

2. Many people often have no idea what that that third pin is for and don't care. If it works why worry? GFCIs are a cheap solution to a very real problem of no grounding for what ever reason it be.
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:lol:
absurd
 
Ingenieur said:
https://safeelectricity.org/ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfcis/

GFCIs are generally installed where electrical circuits may accidentally come into contact with water. They are most often found in kitchens, bath and laundry rooms, or even out-of-doors or in the garage where electric power tools might be used.
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That is the commonly spread myth- the code alludes to wet locations so people jump to the conclusion thinking the reason behind GFCIs is water. That myth is further spread by moves, someone drops a hair dryer in water and everything explodes.
 
Hmmm... trying to follow this argument to learn stuff yet the argument that gfci trips because of water..hmmm... not so sure about that one...
was working on a house just last year... in Jamaica... guy wanted me to simply install some ceiling fans... he had other work going on elsewhere in the house...
guy mudding the walls started complaining that he was getting shocked when doing the one wall. It was in kitchen so all the open outlets had been checked for being off... breakers off, main breaker locked off, because I was on a ladder..lol...
apparently along the years an electrician had run a temp from another level to an outlet on the porch and garage..but the ground and neutral were both bad... and the drill motor they were using to mix the mud was also running bad... typical Jamaican junk systems... so the wall was being energized by a cable we had not even known was there, but, it was on a gfci breaker... the wet mud was being energized by the cable, which should have shorted the breaker in my mind, but the plasterer was getting shocked, and yelling at me...

i made them quit using the drill, until I finished my work and could energize the right panel, disconnected the outlets that were running to the other panel, and then had me a red stripe..lol...
Last I heard, Jerry was frustrating another electrician who was telling him the only areas he understood what was going on was the three rooms I had done..the rest of the house would make you go bald...this makes four electricians and me who have told jerry he needs to properly retire his house before it causes him massive headaches... lol..and his is one of the better ones
 
Ingenieur said:
I have not seen your 'real' world
I live on Earth
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Not my world, common scenario in North America. If not the world. EGC get lost, its easy. Ask any forensic expert. The bulk of none electrician electrocutions come from missing EGCs. I will let you do the research.
 
Ingenieur said:
the entire rigged set-up
I showed you with math and logic, niether is your forte'
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Your math was misapplied or assumptions were made that did not reflect the real world.

Ingenieur said:
notice no missing egc
notice moisture

https://georgebrazilplumbingelectrical.com/blog/why-does-my-outdoor-gfci-outlet-keep-tripping
Most likely, your outdoor GFCI outlet is tripping due to one of these 3 problems:

  • There’s a ground fault somewhere in the circuit.
  • Moisture invaded the receptacle box.
  • The GFCI outlet is faulty.
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Yes- if the circuit has an EGC AND a hot is trickling current to ground it will trip.

It will also trip for a fault on a metal tool without an EGC with more than 5ma going through a person.
 
mbrooke said:
Not my world, common scenario in North America. If not the world. EGC get lost, its easy. Ask any forensic expert. The bulk of none electrician electrocutions come from missing EGCs. I will let you do the research.
Click to expand...

I am a forensic expert, I do accident investigations

where are they lost to?

no they don't
they come from non gfci ckts with intact egc
the individual becomes the fault path
egc can't save them
a gfci could
 
Ingenieur said:
each of your posts get increasingly nuttier :bye:
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Nuttier- because I am delving into reality. In the real world nothing guarantees that an EGC will remain intact. In the real world people have no idea what a ground pin is. In the real world abuse takes place and things break. In the real world way back it was believed that 120 volts could not harm someone.

I take that wave as leaving- which means you do not want to learn/understand just because this information is so alien to your preconceived understanding of the world.

"condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"

"The most beautiful thing we can encounter is the mysterious, it is the source of all knowledge"

Its nothing to be ashamed of, you are not alone. Few know the reasoning behind GFCIs.
 
mbrooke said:
Your math was misapplied or assumptions were made that did not reflect the real world.

Yes- if the circuit has an EGC AND a hot is trickling current to ground it will trip.

It will also trip for a fault on a metal tool without an EGC with more than 5ma going through a person.
Click to expand...

wrong
show me where?
what does not reflect the real world is your video lol

nope
no egc
person becomes path, so neut i not equal hot i, gfci trip
 
mbrooke said:
Nuttier- because I am delving into reality. In the real world nothing guarantees that an EGC will remain intact. In the real world people have no idea what a ground pin is. In the real world abuse takes place and things break. In the real world way back it was believed that 120 volts could not harm someone.

I take that wave as leaving- which means you do not want to learn/understand just because this information is so alien to your preconceived understanding of the world.

"condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"

"The most beautiful thing we can encounter is the mysterious, it is the source of all knowledge"

Its nothing to be ashamed of, you are not alone. Few know the reasoning behind GFCIs.
Click to expand...

delving into reality? lol
you better deep dive

ashamed? lol you are really wack-a-doo
many know the reason-moisture
 
Ingenieur said:
I am a forensic expert, I do accident investigations

where are they lost to?

no they don't
they come from non gfci ckts with intact egc
the individual becomes the fault path
egc can't save them
a gfci could
Click to expand...

This:


In all of these cases, which involved power supplied by a utility, the third wire ground was either nonexistent or was interrupted at some point.
Click to expand...

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-54.pdf


http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-8.pdf




You assumed an unreal fault loop impedance. That tells me you think EGC are insufficient and that would make sense why you keep saying an EGC will not save you. Reality is 250.122 and other things such as table 310.15B, magnetic trip in breakers, ect combine to prove a low fault loop and rapid disconnection.

The GFCI is there should the EGC fail.
 
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