Lobster tank GFCI protection?

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GFCIs have saved a lot of lives, at a time when metal frame tools and 2 prong outlets were king.

An intact EGC will present a low enough impedance such that a high Z fault will produce exceptional low levels of touch potential at the faulted frame.

He was advocating putting a grounded probe in the tank, which will create create massive gradients in the tank should the GFCI fail.

they are still saving lives
most faults are not bolted

not true
30k ohm fault like bad insulation
4 ma, no trip
frame is at 120
120/1000 = 120, gfci trip, 20/1 cb no trip = death

at 6 ma trip gradients will not be 'massive'
and who cares? irrelavent
if the gfci the egc in the tank will ensure the 20/1 trip
better than no trip until someone sticks their hand in the tank = death
do swimming pools have a similar device?

'Dalziel'
phd ee
life long study of shock injury
inventor/patent gfci

you know not of which you peak
 
they are still saving lives
most faults are not bolted

Of course- when you are missing an EGC. Google "assured grounding program" Construction sites let you skip GFCIs when you know the EGC will be present.

not true
30k ohm fault like bad insulation
4 ma, no trip
frame is at 120
120/1000 = 120, gfci trip, 20/1 cb no trip = death

30,000ohms in series with 0.02 ohms. What will be the voltage drop across the 0.02 ohms?




at 6 ma trip gradients will not be 'massive'
and who cares? irrelavent
if the gfci the egc in the tank will ensure the 20/1 trip
better than no trip until someone sticks their hand in the tank = death
do swimming pools have a similar device?

They use bonding to achieve that. GFCIs is just guard against scenarios where an EGC may be missing or compromised. Hard wired pool pumps let you skip GFCI for a while while plug ins needed it. GFCIs (leakage devices) were one of two options to deal with pool electrocution when they first came into the code.
 
Hard wired pool pumps let you skip GFCI for a while while plug ins needed it. GFCIs (leakage devices) were one of two options to deal with pool electrocution when they first came into the code.

Nor any more for resi and small pool pumps.

680.21
(C) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump mo- tors connected to single-phase, 120-volt through 240-volt branch circuits, whether by receptacle or by direct connec- tion, shall be provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
 
Nor any more for resi and small pool pumps.

680.21
(C) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump mo- tors connected to single-phase, 120-volt through 240-volt branch circuits, whether by receptacle or by direct connec- tion, shall be provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Thats true, however its just one more thing that demonstrates the CMP's reasoning behind mandating GFCIs.
 
leakage 4 mA
egc R ~0.5 ohm

frame v = 120 - (0.004 x 0.5) = 119.998 v

Math is being applied wrong. 30,000ohm resistor and 0.5 ohm resistor both in series. Person (1000 ohm) is between (parallel) with the 0.5 ohm resistor.

Ranges and dryers which grounded through the neutral passed far more current to the grounded conductor which was also bonded to the frame at the terminal block and none rose to 119 volts let alone 12 volts with an intact neutral. A high Z fault to a grounded frame is much the same.
 
Thats true, however its just one more thing that demonstrates the CMP's reasoning behind mandating GFCIs.

Okay.....

Now, back to GFCI and EGC. Iggy never said he preferred a GFCI over an EGC, he merely pointed out that the GFCI for extra protection of people was a good idea. I agree, not required, but I would prolly add it also. l would also run a circuit that has an EGC to begin with.
 
Okay.....

Now, back to GFCI and EGC. Iggy never said he preferred a GFCI over an EGC, he merely pointed out that the GFCI for extra protection of people was a good idea. I agree, not required, but I would prolly add it also. l would also run a circuit that has an EGC to begin with.



He is making a case that a Hi Z fault will bring a frame to 119 volts whilst I insist that I am talking about an intact EGC.


http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=192766&page=2&p=1932162#post1932162

wrong
an egc does not prevent shock with a hi z fault


leakage 4 mA
egc R ~0.5 ohm

frame v = 120 - (0.004 x 0.5) = 119.998 v
 
Math is being applied wrong. 30,000ohm resistor and 0.5 ohm resistor both in series. Person (1000 ohm) is between (parallel) with the 0.5 ohm resistor.

Ranges and dryers which grounded through the neutral passed far more current to the grounded conductor which was also bonded to the frame at the terminal block and none rose to 119 volts let alone 12 volts with an intact neutral. A high Z fault to a grounded frame is much the same.

incorrect
math is spot on
that is the reason 480 v mining systems require a 15 a ngr and <2 ohm monitored on the egc
limits frame v under a bolted gf

the frame will be at 120
person 1000
120/1000= 120 ma = trip
 
Of course- when you are missing an EGC. Google "assured grounding program" Construction sites let you skip GFCIs when you know the EGC will be present.

30,000ohms in series with 0.02 ohms. What will be the voltage drop across the 0.02 ohms?

They use bonding to achieve that. GFCIs is just guard against scenarios where an EGC may be missing or compromised. Hard wired pool pumps let you skip GFCI for a while while plug ins needed it. GFCIs (leakage devices) were one of two options to deal with pool electrocution when they first came into the code.

wrong
it's when the person becomes the gnd path
egc has nothing to do with it

you do not understand
not worth the time
pull all gfci out of your house, no benefit

wrong
once people started dying they figured out it might be a good idea lol
deaths 'massive' reduction
even with the egc intact
 
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incorrect
math is spot on
that is the reason 480 v mining systems require a 15 a ngr and <2 ohm monitored on the egc
limits frame v under a bolted gf

Under a BOLTED fault. Before the breaker clears this bolted fault in a few cycles there will be about 138 volts from the frame to remote earth due to voltage dividing evenly between the phase and EGC- assuming both have the same impedance. HRG just limits the voltage to remote earth during those 5 cycles.


the frame will be at 120
person 1000
120/1000= 120 ma = trip


If the EGC is missing. I am talking about a fully functional intact EGC wired to code.
 
Under a BOLTED fault. Before the breaker clears this bolted fault in a few cycles there will be about 138 volts from the frame to remote earth due to voltage dividing evenly between the phase and EGC- assuming both have the same impedance. HRG just limits the voltage to remote earth during those 5 cycles.

If the EGC is missing. I am talking about a fully functional intact EGC wired to code.

wrong
:happysad:

egc 2 ohm
ngr 18.5 ohm

277/20.5 = 13.5 a

frame = 13.5 x 2 = 27 v (goal is < 40)

27/1000 = 27 ma or 2/1002 x 13.5 = 27 ma


death = ma = body wt/sqrt t
t = (body wt/ma)^2 = (175/27)^2 = 42 sec
we allow up to 0.5 sec to avoid nuisance tripping
 
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wrong
it's when the person becomes the gnd path
egc has nothing to do with it

You do not know the history of GFCIs or the CMP's reasoning behind them. People were becoming the ground path because of so many 2 prong metal frame tools and appliances. Countries like the UK that had EGCs on all equipment after WWII did not take on RCDs until the late 90s. With an EGC the person is not the major ground path when a hot wire touches the frame of a tool or appliance.



you do not understand
not worth the time
pull all gfci out of your house, no benefit

I can still buy 2 prong toaster ovens- so not a good idea.


wrong
once people started dying the figured it might be a good idea
deaths 'massive' reduction
even with the egc intact

With all the metal framed tools and 2 prongs at the time, yes it was a good idea that saved many, many lives. I do not dispute that.
 
wrong
:happysad:

egc 2 ohm
ngr 18.5 ohm

277/20.5 = 13.5 ohm

frame = 13.5 x 2 = 27 v (goal is < 40)

27/1000 = 27 ma

death = ma = body wt/sqrt t
t = (body wt/ma)^2 = (175/27)^2 = 42 sec
we allow up to 0.5 sec to avoid nuisance tripping

Ok- I wasn't clear- 138 volts when the HRG is not there and a bolted fault occurs (solid ground X0). With the HRG in place it goes way down as you say. That was my point.

In terms of the fish tank a bolted fault to the light frame and an EGC would produce about 60 volts to remote earth while the breaker is clearing. Those 60 volts would not last long- only a few cycles- perhaps 1 second if the breaker is tripping on thermal and the run is long/limited short circuit current at source.
 
You do not know the history of GFCIs or the CMP's reasoning behind them. People were becoming the ground path because of so many 2 prong metal frame tools and appliances. Countries like the UK that had EGCs on all equipment after WWII did not take on RCDs until the late 90s. With an EGC the person is not the major ground path when a hot wire touches the frame of a tool or appliance.

I can still buy 2 prong toaster ovens- so not a good idea.

With all the metal framed tools and 2 prongs at the time, yes it was a good idea that saved many, many lives. I do not dispute that.

wrong

????

can't disagree with fact

'Dalziel'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dalziel
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]Charles Dalziel


[/COLOR]
He also invented the ground-fault circuit interrupter or GFCI in 1961. The GFCI is commonly found in home bathrooms or kitchens. The device operates normally until 5 milliamps passes from the appliance to ground. Charles Dalziel was a pioneer in understanding electric shock in humans.
 
wrong

????

can't disagree with fact

'Dalziel'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dalziel
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]Charles Dalziel


[/COLOR]
He also invented the ground-fault circuit interrupter or GFCI in 1961. The GFCI is commonly found in home bathrooms or kitchens. The device operates normally until 5 milliamps passes from the appliance to ground. Charles Dalziel was a pioneer in understanding electric shock in humans.





The definition of Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter appeared in Article 680 (in the 1968 edition) as “a device whose function is to interrupt the electric circuit to the load when a fault current to ground exceeds some predetermined value that is less than that required to operate the overcurrent protective device of the supply circuit.” GFCI was still only one of the protection methods permitted for underwater fixtures. An interesting requirement was that conductors on the load side of the GFCI device were to be kept entirely independent of all other wiring and electrical equipment.



It was not until 1971 that GFCI protection became a “required” protection method. Even though underwater lighting fixtures were the first allowed this protection they were not the first required to have it. A failed grounding connection presents an electrical hazard, particularly with the number of handheld power tools and extension cords used around a construction site. So the first GFCI requirement (first simply because it occurred in Section 210-7) was for all single phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used at a construction site. A few sections further, GFCI protection was required for all outdoor 120-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles in residential occupancies, essentially for the same reason as for construction sites. This section also specifically permitted GFCI protection for “other circuits, occupancies and locations” if added protection was desired. In Article 680, protection included all electrical equipment used with storable pools and all receptacles within 15 feet of an indoor pool . The expansion of GFCI protection had begun.

Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection requirements took time to expand. Concerns about the new technology, false tripping, financial burden, and the lack of data were cited as reasons. Still, 210-8(a) of the 1978 NEC added GFCI requirements to garages of dwelling units, partially due to concern with the amount of grounded (concrete) surface, and the fact that many hand-held tools did not have an equipment grounding conductor (for the younger crowd who have only used double-insulated ABS tools, metal used to be the hand-held power tool housing material of choice). Data regarding a grounding system that was verified as being intact supported the addition of an exception to the 210-8(b) construction site requirements. This exception introduced the assured grounding program as an alternative to GFCI protection. GFCI protection also became a requirement for marina receptacles (Article 555).

More Exceptions

Exceptions for garage receptacles that were not accessible — or were used for appliances in a dedicated space — first appeared in 1981. Thirty years ago, many appliances had high leakage currents, and ones with motors often were capable of tripping a GFCI device; therefore, fixed appliance locations were exempted. Non-accessible receptacles — such as on the ceiling for a garage door opener — were likewise exempted, with the expectation that the receptacle would not be used with extension cords or hand-powered tools.

The GFCI requirements expanded in 1987 to additional dwelling unit receptacles. The Code required the installation of at least one receptacle in a basement. With the concrete and portable tool use in this area, GFCI protection became a requirement for that one receptacle. The intent of the wording “above the countertop and within 6 feet of a kitchen sink” was clarified to exempt appliances (disposal, refrigerator, etc.) from the GFCI requirement. Additionally, dwelling boathouses (due to the nature of the location and the use of portable tools) became another protected location. The receptacles in commercial garages (Article 511) were included for the same reasons as those in a dwelling unit garage.

Many pool pumps at private clubs and apartment complexes are hard-wired, and these pools are often maintained by personnel not familiar with bonding and grounding requirements. The concern for protection of the public using these facilities warranted adding the GFCI requirement in the 1999 Code to 125- or 240-volt, 15- and 20-ampere pool pump motors, whether they were direct connected or cord-connected. This edition also brought another change to temporary installations (which were at that time in Article 305) when it expanded GFCI requirements to cover 125-volt, 30-ampere receptacles as well as any other receptacle used temporarily.


This is quoted from an article detailing the NEC evolution of GFCIs but I can't find the link- :rant: NEC connect I believe it was called...
 
Ok- I wasn't clear- 138 volts when the HRG is not there and a bolted fault occurs (solid ground X0). With the HRG in place it goes way down as you say. That was my point.

In terms of the fish tank a bolted fault to the light frame and an EGC would produce about 60 volts to remote earth while the breaker is clearing. Those 60 volts would not last long- only a few cycles- perhaps 1 second if the breaker is tripping on thermal and the run is long/limited short circuit current at source.

if what you are saying under a bolted fault 1/2 of the v drop appears across each conductor (if equal z), so???

under hi z, low leakage, the person is in the path, parallel
assume 120/0.05 = 2400 a fault

person sees 0.1/1000 x 2400 = 240 ma
kills in 0.16 sec for a 100 lb person
the gfci would trip much faster and limit it to x ma range
so gfci safer even with solid egc
 
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