Local electrician dead; no lock-out

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James@CHA

Member
brian john said:
JAMES:

You were there? You have the complete INVESTIGATION report? You dont know JACK!

1. No one should leave the job in a body bag. ZILCH, ZERO, NONE.
2. You do not know all the circumstances DO YOU?


Read some of the post there may have circumstances that put this outside his control and then again maybe not.

You are correct, i may not know all of the facts. What i do know is that the deceased was working on a circuit, de-energized, and was killed when another person RE-ENERGIZED the circuit in question. If these facts are true, then the death could have been prevented with a lock on the disconnect.

You are aloso correct that nobody should leave a job in a body bag. In my opinion, anyone who works on a circuit with no lock-out already has one foot in the body bag.

This was not a manufacturer defect, or fault in the system that killed him. The guy would be alive if the lock was on the disconnect.

It seems like a pretty cut and dry issue.

Do you agree or disagree that this death was preventable?
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
James@CHA said:
I am working in the real world sir. I am currently working in facilities engineering for a large national company's research center. I work with and know a large team of electricians, and see them everyday. So i do have compassion for these guys. Every single electrician on site here carries a LOTO kit in their tool belt, and they know how to use it.

Regardless, the death in question was preventable. If this guy was dumb enough to work on circuit with no Lock-Out, then the compassion goes out the window. Do all the "praying" you like... but please LOCK-OUT the next circuit you work on or you may become a statistic like Mr. Jones.
:smile: .........
 

James@CHA

Member
jnsane84 said:
I was always taught..."If you dont have something of value to add then keep quiet". We all agree it's tragic, we can also agree that none of us did a scene investigation so we can only speak of the details set forth by the report, I would also venture to say that regardless of who we point the finger at for fault this guys family is still grief stricken because of their loss and its extremely unfortunate that he perished performing his duties in the same field we all work in. IMHO I believe the OP was only posting the report to make us all a little more aware of the fact that some companys dont have or use a very structured LOTO program, I dont believe it was intended to speak so harshly of someone who lost their life in such an untimely manner. Honestly, its kind of frustrating and somewhat absurd for someone to make ignorant comments such as "he asked for it" or " If this guy was dumb enough to work on circuit with no Lock-Out".....you are making comments based on what little you know of the situation and I believe that it's quite childish and unethical to post some of the comments that have been made. Lets just all agree that we should ensure that all of our brothers in the electrical trade are well versed in LOTO and that they apply it so that we dont have another post concerning a loss like this and open the door to ignorant comments based little to no information regarding all of the circumstances involved. Thats my 2 and a half cents.

If we can cut through all of the "harsh, childish, unethical" nonsense for a moment...

The fact is that this guy is dead because there was no lock on the disconnect, and someone energized the circuit.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
man someones husband is dead, someones father will not be coming home, someones friend will not at work tomarrow..right wrong or indifferent, it is tragic incident..let the man have some dignity and yet let his death be a lesson to everyone involved..and everyone who reads and understands the implications..
 

ultramegabob

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
James@CHA

James@CHA

Your points on lockout safety may be valid, but they are being overshadowed by your callous comments and name calling of someone that has died, I dont know how the people where you are from react to this type of talk, but it is perceived as in bad taste and can bring out the emotions in the "Good ol boys" where I am from, statements you have made are grounds for a busted nose around here.
 

James@CHA

Member
cschmid said:
man someones husband is dead, someones father will not be coming home, someones friend will not at work tomarrow..right wrong or indifferent, it is tragic incident..let the man have some dignity and yet let his death be a lesson to everyone involved..and everyone who reads and understands the implications..

Agreed, tragic.

And what lesson should one take away from this incident?

Please dont say LOTO, please dont LOTO, please dont say LOTO!!!!
 

jnsane84

Senior Member
James@CHA said:
If we can cut through all of the "harsh, childish, unethical" nonsense for a moment...

The fact is that this guy is dead because there was no lock on the disconnect, and someone energized the circuit.


The fact is that we should look at this as an opportunity to make sure we educate as many as possible to make sure noone else looses their life this way not make assanine comments about the guy "asking for it" or "If this guy was dumb enough to work on circuit.......". Instead why not use your post to remind people to use their LOTO and if they dont know maybe you should post a helpful link. I guess that would require a little more of a thought process than just making ignorant comments about a dead guy being dumb or asking for it. What if it were your family member or even better, what if someone had walked up to you as a child and said, hey little guy your dad's not coming home tonight because he asked to get electricuted and he was dumb. I think I have come to realize that its pointless to continue this conversation with you because you choose to only look at this from a "point the finger" point of view.
 

James@CHA

Member
ultramegabob said:
Your points on lockout safety may be valid, but they are being overshadowed by your callous comments and name calling of someone that has died, I dont know how the people where you are from react to this type of talk, but it is perceived as in bad taste and can bring out the emotions in the "Good ol boys" where I am from, statements you have made are grounds for a busted nose around here.

A busted nose could come my way, but i would stand by my comments.
 

James@CHA

Member
jnsane84 said:
The fact is that we should look at this as an opportunity to make sure we educate as many as possible to make sure noone else looses their life this way not make assanine comments about the guy "asking for it" or "If this guy was dumb enough to work on circuit.......". Instead why not use your post to remind people to use their LOTO and if they dont know maybe you should post a helpful link. I guess that would require a little more of a thought process than just making ignorant comments about a dead guy being dumb or asking for it. What if it were your family member or even better, what if someone had walked up to you as a child and said, hey little guy your dad's not coming home tonight because he asked to get electricuted and he was dumb. I think I have come to realize that its pointless to continue this conversation with you because you choose to only look at this from a "point the finger" point of view.

Point taken. Please use LOTO.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I work alone,. mostly residential ,.I used to do a lot of things live ,.. now thanks in part to this site and the related reading I have done,. I hardly ever do.. I won't pretend that I take every safety measure.. because I don't . I'm not sure why ?? not sure it is as simple as stupidity as I am not stupid... Box fans cause about 400 fires a year I own one,.. seat belts save lives ,..I do not always " click it " driving kills 50,000 people a year ...yet I have been known to roll through a stop sign or two ,..and occasioanlly speed up when the light turns yellow.. I eat food that is bad for me and drink a poison that kills my brain cells... I'm not sure where I'm going with this ,..all that I can say is the man was more than his lack (if that is the case) of using LOTO might suggest to some...

I love my wife and children,..and they me ,..I am always learning yet old habits die hard ,.. some will rest eaiser today,... thanks for the reminder..
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
jnsane84 said:
What if it were your family member or even better, what if someone had walked up to you as a child and said, hey little guy your dad's not coming home tonight because he asked to get electricuted and he was dumb.
Internet search engines like Google are tremendous tools. Type in the name or a word, and every use of it on the net will be displayed. A loved one of Carlton Ellis Jones need not read such uncouth, insensitive, and heartless comments from some distant stranger.
 

James@CHA

Member
Minuteman said:
Internet search engines like Google are tremendous tools. Type in the name or a word, and every use of it on the net will be displayed. A loved one of Carlton Ellis Jones need not read such uncouth, insensitive, and heartless comments from some distant stranger.

Uncouth, good word i like it!!

You are right, she doesnt need to read crass comments from me, but what would she say if she found out that this whole thing was preventable?
 

James@CHA

Member
Someone previously mentioned providing a helpful link for the rest of the forum for education. Please take note of these statistics so none of you become a statistic.

The information below was taken from OISH at the following link (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/99-110.html).

Number of Workers Killed

No detailed national data are available on the number of workers killed each year by contact with uncontrolled hazardous energy. However, during the period 1982-1997, NIOSH investigated 1,281 fatal incidents as part of their FACE Program. Of these, 152 involved installation, maintenance, service, or repair tasks on or near machines, equipment, processes, or systems. Because the FACE program was active in only 20 States between 1982 and 1997, these fatalities represent only a portion of the U.S. workers who were killed by contact with uncontrolled hazardous energy.

Contributing Factors

Review of these 152 incidents suggests that three related factors contributed to these fatalities:

Failure to completely de-energize, isolate, block, and/or dissipate the energy source (82% of the incidents, or 124 of 152)
Failure to lockout and tagout energy control devices and isolation points after de-energization (11% of the incidents, or 17 of 152)

Failure to verify that the energy source was de-energized before beginning work (7% of the incidents, or 11 of 152)

In a study conducted by the United Auto Workers (UAW), 20% of the fatalities (83of 414) that occurred among their members between 1973 and 1995 were attributed to inadequate hazardous energy control procedures specifically, lockout/tagout procedures. The energy sources involved in these fatalities included kinetic, potential, electrical, and thermal energy [UAW 1997].
 

jnsane84

Senior Member
Minuteman said:
Internet search engines like Google are tremendous tools. Type in the name or a word, and every use of it on the net will be displayed. A loved one of Carlton Ellis Jones need not read such uncouth, insensitive, and heartless comments from some distant stranger.


I regret wording that as such but it was directed towards James who has made these comments numerous times. It's too late for me to edit it but if one of the moderators would be so kind as to omit that particular line from my post I would greatly appreciate it. If you read the whole post I think you will better understand the direction I was heading and where it was directed. I apologize for the lack of pre-thought prior to posting.
 

jnsane84

Senior Member
James@CHA said:
Someone previously mentioned providing a helpful link for the rest of the forum for education. Please take note of these statistics so none of you become a statistic.

The information below was taken from OISH at the following link (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/99-110.html).

Number of Workers Killed

No detailed national data are available on the number of workers killed each year by contact with uncontrolled hazardous energy. However, during the period 1982-1997, NIOSH investigated 1,281 fatal incidents as part of their FACE Program. Of these, 152 involved installation, maintenance, service, or repair tasks on or near machines, equipment, processes, or systems. Because the FACE program was active in only 20 States between 1982 and 1997, these fatalities represent only a portion of the U.S. workers who were killed by contact with uncontrolled hazardous energy.

Contributing Factors

Review of these 152 incidents suggests that three related factors contributed to these fatalities:

Failure to completely de-energize, isolate, block, and/or dissipate the energy source (82% of the incidents, or 124 of 152)
Failure to lockout and tagout energy control devices and isolation points after de-energization (11% of the incidents, or 17 of 152)

Failure to verify that the energy source was de-energized before beginning work (7% of the incidents, or 11 of 152)

In a study conducted by the United Auto Workers (UAW), 20% of the fatalities (83of 414) that occurred among their members between 1973 and 1995 were attributed to inadequate hazardous energy control procedures specifically, lockout/tagout procedures. The energy sources involved in these fatalities included kinetic, potential, electrical, and thermal energy [UAW 1997].

Thanks for posting that James. Thats great research and it shows that maybe you do care a little about showing a kinder gentler side.:grin:
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
You are correct, i may not know all of the facts. What i do know is that the deceased was working on a circuit, de-energized, and was killed when another person RE-ENERGIZED the circuit in question. If these facts are true, then the death could have been prevented with a lock on the disconnect.

My point is/was on construction jobs, when utility is not available LOTO is not utilized (At least on jobs I have been on) it is possible that through a variety of mishaps a circuit that should HAVE NEVER BEEN ENERGIZED was.

I have been involved in cases where this happened.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
brantmacga said:
That could be any of us. Be safe and teach your employees how to be safe. It only takes a minute to save your own life.
Don't let that minute be one too late. Always consider what can happen beforehand. Be cognizant of your surroundings and potential hazards. Accidents happen fast and many are beyond immediate control. There is no magic slow motion, stop motion machine.

A plumber fell off scaffolding 30 feet to his death today (or yesterday, depending on time zone) at my current jobsite, not more than 150 feet from where I was working. I am uncertain as to the safeness of the scaffolding he was working from. He clearly was not using a fall arrest system. Today was his second day on site.

Not electrically related, but all the same, one minute of safety consideration may have made a big difference...
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
brian john said:
My point is/was on construction jobs, when utility is not available LOTO is not utilized (At least on jobs I have been on)

Here here!!
Whats worse our corporate contractors don't provide PPE either, not even rubber gloves.
You must BYOB (Bring Your Own Beer)

My OSHA office told me they can't investigate violations until someone is hospitalized for longer than 48 hours.
 

ohm

Senior Member
Location
Birmingham, AL
I was on a 1000 man job as part of a 20 man start up team. Safety procedures dictated LOTO in the motor control center not the local disconnect. I was contacted on the radio to close the breaker to one of three cooling tower fans. It was LOTO'd and had a duct tape ID since the plastic tags were not yet installed. Something caused me question the order and I'm glad I did. The motor I was told to energize had 6 guys in the tower. Everyone involved was just doing their job and no one 100% to blame but 6 guys almost got hurt.

When the 4 million man hour job closed there was one reportable injury, a gal from the main plant required stiches when she cut her hand opening a can of beanie weinies in a break room.

I personnally put my own lock as close as I can to what I'm doing, regardless of company policy but some accidents are awful had to prevent.

My heart goes out to the Jones family.
 
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