loft receptacle placement

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stickboy 1375

stickboy 1375

Hi: In NY State, in our Residential Building code (which has a stand-alone electrical code within it, fashioned from the 1999 NEC), we have a definition of habitable space. This is the type space that 210.52(A) of the 2005 NEC refers to for receptacle placement. In addition to defining habitable space, our NY residential definition goes on to state that "Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces." So, in NY, halls don't fit under the 210.52(A), but they do under 210.52(H) which says to me if your "hall" is more than 10' you need a receptacle. I don't believe the area you cite is hall space though. I think it might be habitable space and someone could put a lamp table along the railing and end up having to use a lead cord if a receptacle outlet is not provided. I think you're right to want to put a receptacle there.
 
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Is a railing a "Wall"?

Look at 210.52(A)(2)(1). "Any space 2' or more in WIDTH (including space measured around corners) and UNBROKEN along THE FLOOR line by doorways,fireplaces and similar OPENINGS.


Does the railing hit the floor?
Are the posts wider than 2'

To me a railing does not constitute a "wall" under this section. JMO
 
3.7raillivingroom.jpg


Does everyone agree this requires a receptacle or two? Or is this not a room divider because of the stairs? This is pretty much my situation....
 
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I was much happier doing all the noncompliant things when I thought they were legal. Now I feel guilty about some of my old jobs.

When in doubt-- add a receptacle. I would bet most inspectors will want one anyway and you'd have to fight over it. If it were my house I would want one there anyway.
 
stickboy1375 said:
3.7raillivingroom.jpg


Does everyone agree this requires a receptacle or two? Or is this not a room divider because of the stairs? This is pretty much my situation....
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What about a receptacle in the wall just over the edge of the floor, like a kitchen-island receptacle?
 
LarryFine said:
What about a receptacle in the wall just over the edge of the floor, like a kitchen-island receptacle?
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That would be fun to plug into. And have a cord hanging over in the stairway. Yuckoo
 
Dennis Alwon said:
That would be fun to plug into. And have a cord hanging over in the stairway. Yuckoo
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Not every situation would involve a stairwell, and to be honest I dont really mind installing $100.00 floor receptacles, just want everything to be up to code.
 
I think that the code requires receptacles along the railing, however if I was the owner I'd take it to court before I would let the EC install it.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I think that the code requires receptacles along the railing, however if I was the owner I'd take it to court before I would let the EC install it.
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Agreed, as long as you and the EC see eye-to-eye on the matter. You wouldn't want him on the other side.
 
stickboy1375 said:
3.7raillivingroom.jpg


Does everyone agree this requires a receptacle or two? Or is this not a room divider because of the stairs? This is pretty much my situation....
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Yes. Just guessing, I'd say one would cover it, in the middle of the long side.
 
stickboy1375 said:
3.7raillivingroom.jpg
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stickboy1375 said:

Does everyone agree this requires a receptacle or two? Or is this not a room divider because of the stairs? This is pretty much my situation....
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It is not a room divider, but that is not because of the stairs. It is because on the other side of the railing there is no "room," or simply "no floor."

Dennis was right in his guess that my answer would be "no."

I don't think anyone would say that we are forbidden to install one or more floor receptacles nearby this railing. I think some homeowners might like to have one, and others would not want one.

The disagreement here is whether the code requires one. I have yet to hear anyone contest or contradict my viewpoint that "no floor divider, therefore no wall space, therefore no receptacles required." Please re-read that article, and tell my whether you think I am reading it wrong.

But as an exercise, try this: stop reading the sentence when you get to the words "room divider." I submit that the words that follow are unnecessary, and are not enforceable, since they simply provide examples. That is, if you use a railing as a room divider, then the article applies. But if you use a railing for a purpose that does not create a room divider, then the article does not apply. The rule is about room dividers, not about bars or railings.
 
WOW! OK then. We've been putting them where we were supposed to according to the AHJ. Not in the code? I disagree. Say we have a cabin. The second floor of this cabin covers half of the slab footprint. In other words, cathedral ceiling on half the cabin. You are telling me that on that 20' railing where the loft ends, I don't need a receptacle? Something doesn't smell right in "Larryville". I must have missed something here.
 
Charlie B

Charlie B

Quotes from Charlie B: "It is not a room divider, but that is not because of the stairs..... It is because on the other side of the railing there is no "room," or simply "no floor." Dennis was right in his guess that my answer would be "no." .... "no floor divider, therefore no wall space, therefore no receptacles required." ....... if you use a railing as a room divider, then the article applies. The rule is about room dividers, not about bars or railings."

Wbalsam1 says: "I agree whole-heartedly with your interpretation, Charlie B. Thanks for the insight."
 
blue spark said:
OK then. We've been putting them where we were supposed to according to the AHJ.
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It is not the AHJ?s role to write the code. I am reporting to you that my interpretation of the code, as written, is that in the specific example discussed in this thread?s original question, the code does not require them.

But you can always do more than the code requires.

blue spark said:
You are telling me that on that 20' railing where the loft ends, I don't need a receptacle?
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That is what I am saying that the code is telling you.

What is it that makes you think that receptacles are required? Probably 210.52(A)(2)(3). But as ?Charlie?s Rule? would remind you, that article does not say what you think it does. None of them do. It says what it says. It says something about wall space and floor dividers, but it does not declare that every railing is a room divider. In your cabin example, as in two other examples discussed in this thread, the railing does not constitute a ?fixed room divider.? The room ends where the floor ends, regardless of whether the railing is there. The railing is placed in that place for a safety reason that has nothing to do with electrical rules. Once it is there, it does not divide the room into two separate areas. So 210.52(A)(2)(3) does not apply. At least that is my opinion. The opinion(s) of your A(s)HJ may vary.
 
Reading nothing more than what is said in 210.52(A)(2)(3), I would claim that the rail is in fact a fixed room divider.

What is on the other side of the rail? Nothingness? The rail divides the living space into two separate sections. Thus the rail is a room divider. Or the 10 foot drop is the room divider. But in any case, there is a room divider at this location and a receptacle is required.

Even when you read only what the code says, there is room for interpretation. I could see the argument that there are two separate rooms, and thus some

-Jon
 
winnie said:
What is on the other side of the rail? Nothingness? . . . . Or the 10 foot drop is the room divider.
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Neither the ?nothingness? for the ?10 foot drop? is a ?fixed room divider.? Neither is ?fixed.?

winnie said:
The rail divides the living space into two separate sections.
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It does no such thing. You are not dividing a space into two spaces. The other side of the rail is on a different floor level that is separated from the loft area by vertical distance, not a room divider.

winnie said:
Reading nothing more than what is said in 210.52(A)(2)(3), I would claim that the rail is in fact a fixed room divider.
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That article says that a railing is an example of a fixed room divider. There are fixed room dividers that are not railings; there are railings that are not fixed room dividers. The rule states that wall spaces includes the space afforded by fixed room dividers. It does not say that wall spaces includes the space afforded by railings.

If there were a railing between a kitchen and a dining area, then I might agree that, in that particular case, the rail is a fixed room divider. But for a railing to be a fixed room divider, there must be a room on both sides of the railing.
 
Charlie-- you knew you were going to take heat for your comment. You a very literal person and I admire your abilities with the english language.

So, in your opinion, given the original posters question with a counter instead of a railing, no outlet would be required either?
 
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