loft receptacle placement

[winnie]

I'm going to have a beer (lightweight) and agree to disagree. I see where Charlie is coming from, but I'm quite sure of my stance.

Julie: you brewing tonight?

-Jon

 

[al hildenbrand]

There's an earlier thread that I haven't found yet, that has part of this discussion in it as well.

Larry in Michigan started What constitutes a wall? is an interim thread on the subject but it is not the one I'm thinking of.

 

[Bea]

Charlie I from Missouri show me a pitcure of a railing that is a room divider that is not a railing of stairwell or loft.

The OP and the one picture as examples in know way indicate that railing formed a hallway not that in some situations the railing of the stairwell may in fact form a means of a hallway may not require a receptacle if less than 10 feet.


In this case, the NEC says to put receptacles by all fixed wall dividers. It does not say to put them by all railings. That is my only point.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie, ?I am from Missouri.? Show me a picture of a railing that is a room divider that is not a railing of stairwell or loft.

Sorry; I haven?t got a picture.

But I did have a house with just such a railing. The floor level of the small kitchen was about 2 inches higher than the floor level of the adjacent living room. There was a metal railing that ran about 4 feet across the boundary between the two rooms. There was also a section of that boundary with no railing, about 30 inches wide, through which you walked from one room to the other (stepping up or down, as appropriate). I am fairly certain that there was no receptacle anywhere along the floor line under, or near, the railing.

I bought that house in 1979 or 1980. It was newly built. I do not know whether the NEC in effect at the time would have required receptacles along that railing. At that time in my career, being a young Navy Lieutenant, I had yet to even lay eyes on a single copy of the NEC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Charlie,

Which NEC would you care to stipulate that this house you are remembering was wired to. . . the 1978 or the 1975?

 

[charlie b]

Sorry, Al, but one guess is as good as another. I do not know. It was in Virginia, if that helps. But I do not know when they get around to adopting each new edition of the NEC. It was a completely new housing area being developed, and I was the first owner of that particular house.

By chance, did the relevant code section change significantly between those two issues?

 

[al hildenbrand]

The applicable article in both the '75 & '78 NECs was 210-25. Receptacle Outlets Required.

The article is long, in four parts: (a) General, (b) Dwelling Units, (c) Guest Rooms, and (d) Show Windows.

There were a number of language changes between '75 and '78, but none occur in the portion of the article that applies to the discussion in this Thread.

1978 NEC
210-25. Receptacle Outlets Required. Receptacle outlets shall be installed where specified in (a) through (d) below.
_____ A cord connector that is supported by a permanently connected cord pendant shall be considered a receptacle outlet.
_____ (a) General. Where flexible cords are used.
Exception. . . N/A
_____ (b) Dwelling Unit. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, breakfast room, living room, parlor, library, den, sun room, bedroom, recreation room, or similar rooms, receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6 feet, measured horizontally, from an outlet in that space, including any wall space 2 feet or more in width and the wall space occupied by sliding panels in exterior walls. The wall space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as free-standing bar-type counters, shall be included in the 6-floor measurement.
*
*
_____ As used in this section a "wall space" shall be considered a wall unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings. Each wall space two or more feet wide shall be treated individually and permitted to include two or more walls of a room (around corners) where unbroken at the floor line.
_____ The purpose of this requirement is to minimize the use of cords across doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings. The small type is a '78 FPN, the following is not.
_____ The receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of any lighting fixture, or appliance, located within cabinets or cupboards, or located over 5? feet above the floor.
*
*

 

[charlie b]

I am sorry to learn that the words ?afforded by? have been in the code that long. I have never understood the use of ?afforded? in this context. No dictionary I have read includes a definition of ?afford? or ?afforded? that makes any sense in the context used in the code. :-?

Actually, I had thought about submitting a code change recommendation for 2008, but never got around to it. I am still thinking about putting it on my ?2011 list.? However, the code making panels are going to wonder why, given that it has been in the code that long, and hasn?t yet caused any fatal fires or similar disasters, why I think it important to get rid of that word now. It?s going take one of my more brilliant displays of writing skills to convince them to banish the word ?afforded? from the code.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I support you in your aspiration!

The phrase:

The wall space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as free-standing bar-type counters, shall be included in the 6-floor measurement.

word for word was introduced in the 1971 NEC.

I find the Fine Print Note particularly instructive. The FPN was new in the '75.

The purpose of this requirement is to minimize the use of cords across doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings.

In my personal working experience, effecting wiring alterations in existing single family dwellings over the last, nearly, thirty years, I have been guided by the common sense encapsulated in the FPN phrase.

Imagine a bedroom with one receptacle outlet on a wall. There are two doors on the walls of the room. The AHJ community in my area has consistently guided me to put the new outlet on the wall space without one, even when it will take much less of my labor to put it on the other.

Occasionally there will be a third door in the room, say it goes to an outside porch (not uncommon for the early 1900s two story found here). If I add a third receptacle outlet, it goes in the empty wall space.

I know I'm comparing "existing occupancy maintenance code" with NEC new construction code. . .apples to oranges in some sense. . .but I think the over arching point applies.

So, the clumsy-ness :wink: of "afforded by" being what it is, I come down on the side of this thread's discussion defending the railing as a "wall space".