loft receptacle placement

[charlie b]

I would say that no outlet would be required in that case either, and for the same reason. First you ask yourself if you are looking at a "fixed room divider." IMHO, to get a "yes" to that question, there has to be a "room" on both sides of the divider.

In this instance, however, I am more inclined to guess that the HO would like a receptacle or two, even if the code did not require them. I certainly would. I would like to able to plug in a blender or other bar-related small appliance.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

At the same time you would no doubt agree if given the same scenario with a 3' wall that receptacles would be needed. Or am I kidding myself?

 

[winnie]

I would say that no outlet would be required in that case either, and for the same reason. First you ask yourself if you are looking at a "fixed room divider." IMHO, to get a "yes" to that question, there has to be a "room" on both sides of the divider

But that is the crux of the interpretation difference.

I believe that there is a room on both sides of the railing. There is a significant different in floor level, but there is still a room on both sides.

This railing breaks up space in a very similar fashion to a wall, and that seems to be the best definition I can come up with for a 'fixed room divider'. "Something that is not a wall, but which breaks up space in the fashion of a wall."

I rather like Dennis' question. If this 'railing' were instead built with studs and plasterboard, but only extended from the floor to railing hight, would this become a wall?

-Jon

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I rather like Dennis' question. If this 'railing' were instead built with studs and plasterboard, but only extended from the floor to railing hight, would this become a wall?
-Jon

I guess I am being apparent at where I am going with my questioning.

 

[mayjong]

beat me to it,,,,
i also came up with the question "if the rail was replaced with a framed wall (albeit not full height) would you require recepticles?" if your answer is yes to one, i believe it should be yes to the other. i say recepticles required in both instances.

 

[Bob NH]

I would rely on the wording of 210.52(A)(2)(1) where there is reference to "unbroken along the floor line . . ."

If a railing is fastened continuously to the floor, it is a half-wall; but if it is supported on posts, then it the space is "broken" along the floor line by the spaces between the posts and there is no continuous section at least two feet long. Therefore, no receptacle required.

 

[Bea]

Charlie

room divider

Is not the railing dividing the room from the stair well I belive so or as the OP post the railing is dividing the bedroom (loft) from the room below be it the living room or whatever room. It is a room divider and requires receptacles 6 and 12 feet.

 

[allenwayne]

I have been trying to access an old thread in regards to the same issue.Charlie B referred me to Joe but haven`t had time yet to PM him in regards to it.

The old thread was about this very subject,railing along a loft area that led into 3 bedrooms.The inspector required that the spacing be as if it was a wall.
The consensus then was that the railing was as if it was a knee wall and would require spacing as the code requires it along the floor line.Does the fact of the railing being in contact with the floor change things if the railing was raised 2 ins. above the floor ?????

I considered it as if it was a hall area (need to go through this area to access the bedrooms)But all in this forum said if it is with in confines of a loft area then it is as if in with in confines of a room.As the posted picture shows it is within the confines of a loft/room and needs to be spaced as if the railing was a wall.

So how is this now different ???????

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would rely on the wording of 210.52(A)(2)(1) where there is reference to "unbroken along the floor line . . ."

If a railing is fastened continuously to the floor, it is a half-wall; but if it is supported on posts, then it the space is "broken" along the floor line by the spaces between the posts and there is no continuous section at least two feet long. Therefore, no receptacle required.

Bob, I feeling this "unbroken along the floor line . . ." does not mean if a railing is supported by post it is "broken". I believe broken means by

"doorways, fireplaces and similar openings"

It makes absolutely no sense to say it is a wall if a board were running along the floor and the railing attached to it. The railing is either a wall space or it is not. I believe it is.

 

[blue spark]

Hmmm, this could really go on and on. I think I'll file it away right next to "the fixed portion of a french door is a wall space".

 

[winnie]

The old thread was about this very subject,railing along a loft area that led into 3 bedrooms.The inspector required that the spacing be as if it was a wall.
The consensus then was that the railing was as if it was a knee wall and would require spacing as the code requires it along the floor line.
[...]
So how is this now different ???????

My opinion (as stated above) only: a railing is a fixed room divider because it chops up space in the same fashion as a wall, but it is not a wall.

I don't recall the previous thread, but based upon my current understanding: if you were to take away the railing and put up a solid wall, and the resulting space were a hallway, then you should have met the receptacle requirements of a hallway. (Of course, this would most likely mean that you didn't need receptacles along this rail, because hallways don't require such.)

-Jon

 

[charlie b]

Is not the railing dividing the room from the stair? Well I believe so. . . . (the) railing is dividing the bedroom (loft) from the room below be it the living room or whatever room.

AND

I believe that there is a room on both sides of the railing. There is a significant different in floor level, but there is still a room on both sides.

The railing is not dividing a room from another room. Nor is it dividing one portion of a room from a different portion of the same room. The railing is located at the edge of one room, and what is on the other side is not a room. Can show me an article in the code in which we are told to measure the distances between receptacles in wall lines by continuing the measurement down a staircase into the room below?

Let me put it another way. If I am standing in the loft, the railing stands at the boundary of that room. If I am standing on the first floor, the railing does not form a boundary or a separator. I can walk anywhere I wish, and never bump into that railing. Thus, the railing is not separating two rooms.

This railing breaks up space in a very similar fashion to a wall, and that seems to be the best definition I can come up with for a 'fixed room divider'. "Something that is not a wall, but which breaks up space in the fashion of a wall."

Continuing my reasoning from the paragraph above, this particular railing does not break up space, for there is space only on one side.

I rather like Dennis' question. If this 'railing' were instead built with studs and plasterboard, but only extended from the floor to railing height, would this become a wall?

Yes it would. It would be a ?wall? because it looks, walks, and talks like a wall. A railing does neither of these things.

I guess I am being apparent at where I am going with my questioning.

My guess is that, after I say ?yes,? (and I just did that), your next question is going to be, ?What about a 1.5 foot wall, or a 7 inch wall?? My response would be that we should not discuss hypothetical wall-like-thingies that would never be built (i.e., because they would be trip hazards).

Let me throw this back your way. If the floor level of the kitchen is 4 inches higher than the floor level of the dining room, and if there is no wall or railing or other structure between the two rooms, and if the line that separates the kitchen from the dining room is a single step, eight feet wide and 4 inches high, would you feel obliged to put a receptacle in the dining room, either within the step or on the DR floor within 18 inches of the step?

 

[allenwayne]

Charlie a step or a several inch wall so be it is an entry into another area.That area would only have to comply with a hallway spacing requirement.That said...

Now take a loft area where you top the stairs and there is a 12 ft. 6 in railing.This was the scenario I had in the mentioned thread.The entire loft area was around 12 ft. X 20 ft.The problem was that the truss layout did n`t allow the receptacle to be within the 6 ft ruling,As a result we had to add a 2nd floor box to meet spacing.

The consensus was that the estimator should have caught it and put it in the bid.I coincided that yes he should have but the area was still the only access to the bed rooms on the loft level. I called it a hallway he called it part of the loft so spacing must be met.The additional receptacles were added and it and others passed inspection.My point in the archived thread was that it passed rough with only one receptacle as if it was a hall but then after it was finished it suddenly became a room.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My guess is that, after I say “yes,” (and I just did that), your next question is going to be, “What about a 1.5 foot wall, or a 7 inch wall?” My response would be that we should not discuss hypothetical wall-like-thingies that would never be built (i.e., because they would be trip hazards).

Your guess is not what I was thinking at all. My thoughts were that a 3' high wall is not any different in its purpose than a 3' high handrail. Sometimes walls are built in lieu of handrails for whatever reason (cost, ease, etc). It may look like ,feel like and even taste like a wall but it's purpose is that of a handrail. I would even go so far as to say it is a handrail that looks like a wall.

I think that if one accepts the 3' high wall as needing a receptacle than I cannot fathom why one does not think a 3' high rail requires a receptacle. I will leave it at that. I suppose neither of us will budge on our feelings about this so I will let it go.

I must say for a post or two you had me puzzled and thinking. I appreciate that but I must do what I think is required by the NEC.

Also if the issue ever came up for whatever reason I am covered by my installation. I can't go back and install that receptacle later.

Oh and to answer your question

If the floor level of the kitchen is 4 inches higher than the floor level of the dining room, and if there is no wall or railing or other structure between the two rooms, and if the line that separates the kitchen from the dining room is a single step, eight feet wide and 4 inches high, would you feel obliged to put a receptacle in the dining room, either within the step or on the DR floor within 18 inches of the step?

I would not feel obligated to put a receptacle in this situation since I would call this area an "8' wide stair". I don't see this as similar to a handrail at all.

 

[charlie b]

I think that if one accepts the 3' high wall as needing a receptacle than I cannot fathom why one does not think a 3' high rail requires a receptacle.

The way I fathom it is that the NEC started talking about walls. We all have a good idea what a wall is. Then the NEC said that something other than a wall has to be counted as though it were wall space. I would have been happy if they had just left it at walls, and not tossed in the bit about the fixed room dividers. But they did toss that in.

. . . I must do what I think is required by the NEC.

I agree. But I don?t want to be forced into doing something that the NEC does not require. I may do it anyway, but I don?t want to be told that I must. In this case, the NEC says to put receptacles by all fixed wall dividers. It does not say to put them by all railings. That is my only point.

I will leave it at that.

Me too. It?s been fun discussing this with you, meaning all of you. :smile:

 

[stickboy1375]

I am still standing on the fence on this one, One thing that has me thinking is that if they wanted a receptacle installed 18" in front of a railing, the NEC would just come out and say it, thats why I must agree with Charlie b.... Not required...

 

[LarryFine]

I am still standing on the fence on this one...

Yes, but is that fence required to have a receptacle?

 

[stickboy1375]

Only if you want to pay for it...

 

[George Stolz]

I think I need to drink about three beers and return to this thread. I really don't understand how something I have perceived to be so simple has been stretched so far as to mean the opposite.

If the railing wasn't there, dividing the room from the stairs, then people would fall off the edge.

A wall would have served that purpose as well.

I just feel there is some greater meaning being attributed to the terms involved than was ever intended.

No offense, but wow.

 

[stickboy1375]

George I have had 3 beers, and yes I still can't believe it, yet, I still can't argue with Charlie b either... :grin:

IMHO, you could easily place a tv, etc.. in front of a railing, thus need to run a extension cord, so in my mind there has to be something wrong, because that would be a safety hazard...??? any thoughts?