main service disconnect

[James L]

why is it so complicated either you have to separate or you don’t
The panel inside is literally 3 feet away it’s not a sub panel

It all hangs on where your grounding terminates... in the panel or in your disconnect outside (regardless if that disconnected in the meter or not)

If you ground everything inside, that is your service disconnect, and the disconnect outside would be your emergency disconnect.

If your ground everything outside, then that is your service disconnect, and your panel inside becomes a sub panel.

What makes it complicated is when there is a "half here, half there" approach on the grounding. Water ground inside, ground rod connected outside... I don't like that approach

It doesn't matter if your panel inside is piggybacked on the backside of your outside disconnect, with only 18 inches of cable. If it grounds outside, then your inside panel is a subpanel

 

[Dsg319]

Would this picture be complaint as it says it is? Having a meter main and labeling as both service equipment AND emergency disconnect.

 

[James L]

View attachment 2555016 Would this picture be complaint as it says it is? Having a meter main and labeling as both service equipment AND emergency disconnect.

If all of your bonding is done outside, and your grounds are separated from the neutrals inside, then yes. That would be your emergency disconnect and your service disconnect

 

[Dsg319]

If all of your bonding is done outside, and your grounds are separated from the neutrals inside, then yes. That would be your emergency disconnect and your service disconnect

 

[ritelec]

Just looked around in the book. I can not find where it says bond and ground at first overcurrent protection Device. Am I missing it or is it just disconnect ?

I may be starting a thread ???

 

[shortcircuit2]

Just looked around in the book. I can not find where it says bond and ground at first overcurrent protection Device. Am I missing it or is it just disconnect ?

I may be starting a thread ???

Try 250.24

 

[ritelec]

Yes, that's where I saw "disconnect" not "overcurrent"... so, not to highjack but quickly.
Service lateral (or drop) to meter. Meter can go to a non fused (or fused) service rated knife switch. From there go to panels with OC protection ( lets say locally with a trough).
Bonding and GEC goes to non fused knife switch only. All panels on load side of disconnect (knife switch) get separate neutral and grounds. ( I would think this non fused knife switch and all the wiring would be subject to other codes requiring it and conductors to be protected though).

Thanks for the clarification. Always thought it was first over-current device not first disconnect.

 

[ritelec]

Hold on. Now I'm alittle confused. For the "emergency disconnect switch". ANY switch installed outside for an emergancy disconnect (with or without oc protection) will have to be grounded with GEC as per 250.24(A) and bonded and therefore it will also always be the service disconnect also, and inside is always a sub panel and needs a separate ground.

 

[James L]

Hold on. Now I'm alittle confused. For the "emergency disconnect switch". ANY switch installed outside for an emergancy disconnect (with or without oc protection) will have to be grounded with GEC as per 250.24(A) and bonded and therefore it will also always be the service disconnect also, and inside is always a sub panel and needs a separate ground.

That's why I mentioned a "half here, half there" approach to grounding. Guys are grounding outside to a ground rod, and inside to water line, ufer, etc.

That's what the OP is about.

 

[infinity]

Hold on. Now I'm alittle confused. For the "emergency disconnect switch". ANY switch installed outside for an emergancy disconnect (with or without oc protection) will have to be grounded with GEC as per 250.24(A) and bonded and therefore it will also always be the service disconnect also, and inside is always a sub panel and needs a separate ground.

That's not the way I read it. If it's solely an emergency disconnect there is no GEC required. The metal enclosure is bonded to the neutral just like the meter enclosure which does't require a GEC either.

 

[Fred B]

Now to complicate it further, if meter main is say, 200ft from house, that also seems to change things as well, unless I've seen it done wrong. Meter main was bonded and ground rods, and the house main bonded with it's own ground rods, also from the meter main to a barn/garage with it's own main panel bonded and ground rods.
(Unless this whole thing was wrong, seen alot of that, "Just because it is common practice doesn't mean it's right".)

 

[oldsparky52]

Is it going to be the service disconnect or an emergency disconnect?

Welcome to the Forum.

Serious question, when does an emergency disconnect not disconnect the service? In other words, what is your point about the difference between a "service disconnect" and an "emergency disconnect"? I have not read the new requirement for an emergency disconnect so please excuse me if the answer is there.

 

[ritelec]

That's not the way I read it. If it's solely an emergency disconnect there is no GEC required. The metal enclosure is bonded to the neutral just like the meter enclosure which does't require a GEC either.

Thank you,

This is getting wacky. Lets say there is a main breaker installed outside. It is labeled as emergency disconnect. It is bonded to enclosure only.

Now, a 3 wire (not 4) comes into the building. Is it code compliant to install a main lug panel (not main breaker) and bond and GEC to that panel?

If this is compliant, then at that point you would have to label the outside as a Service Disconnect also. Then because of a "label" a 4th wire would be needed between the exterior disconnect and interior main lug panel because of "labeling"? and the interior panel is now a sub panel and not a main panel. AND now you have to remove that GEC from the ML panel and put it outside at the exterior emergency/service disconnect ???

OK... Ha ! I got it.

 

[James L]

I don't know why people seem to want to go out of their way to make it more complex than it needs to be. Just put the main breaker outside and make the inside panel a sub.

 

[retirede]

I don't know why people seem to want to go out of their way to make it more complex than it needs to be. Just put the main breaker outside and make the inside panel a sub.

True for new installations.
But the circumstances of the original poster are that he is adding the outside disconnect. Making the inside panel a sub creates a bunch more work separating EGCs and neutrals. Add to that the fact that his inspector told him he did not need to separate them.

 

[ritelec]

The metal enclosure is bonded to the neutral just like the meter enclosure which doesn't require a GEC either.

Just reading around and see 250.142(B) Exception No. 2 for grounding of meter enclosure, allowing the use of the grounded circuit conductor.
Is there an Exception to grounding the Emergency Disconnect enclosure in the same manner?

 

[LarryFine]

Lets say there is a main breaker installed outside. It is labeled as emergency disconnect. It is bonded to enclosure only.

Now, a 3 wire (not 4) comes into the building. Is it code compliant to install a main lug panel (not main breaker) and bond and GEC to that panel?

I'd say no, not compliant. The lack of an inside main means you can't declare the outside breaker emergency only.

 

[kwired]

View attachment 2555016 Would this picture be complaint as it says it is? Having a meter main and labeling as both service equipment AND emergency disconnect.

No choice on that one since there is branch/feeder circuits also supplied by it, it has to be the service disconnect, and because it is outside it can also be the emergency disconnect.

 

[kwired]

Just looked around in the book. I can not find where it says bond and ground at first overcurrent protection Device. Am I missing it or is it just disconnect ?

I may be starting a thread ???

unless something changed in 2020, don't think it did, the GEC can connect anywhere between the service disconnecting means and the service drop or lateral. Places where you not allowed to connect it to meter socket is POCO policy and not because of what NEC says.

 

[kwired]

I'm going to say that if you have the E disconnect outside and service disconnect inside, whatever you have outside can not supply any other load (in/on same building anyway, detached garage I think would be acceptable ) or else you now have violation of number or location of service disconnecting means allowed, unless you are feeding two to six service disconnects grouped together.