main service disconnect

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Dsg319

Dsg319

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia
Occupation
Wv Master “lectrician”
kwired said:
No choice on that one since there is branch/feeder circuits also supplied by it, it has to be the service disconnect, and because it is outside it can also be the emergency disconnect.
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That’s what I was thinking, and personally if it was on the side of my house I’d rather have a meter/main, service/emergency disconnect rather than a big knife switch.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Dsg319 said:
That’s what I was thinking, and personally if it was on the side of my house I’d rather have a meter/main, service/emergency disconnect rather than a big knife switch.
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This emergency disconnect isn't required by NEC to be on the house, just somewhere on the premises from what I recall.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Greentagger said:
A readily accessible outdoor location. 230.85
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Even more vague, but on someone else's property probably not a great idea. On the premises(still needs to be outdoors) still works for me. In rural areas around here is common to have an isolation switch on pole supplying residential properties, or a pedestal if distribution is all underground. That should qualify in most cases.
 
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stephen fox

Member
Location
boston
Occupation
electrician
James L said:
It all hangs on where your grounding terminates... in the panel or in your disconnect outside (regardless if that disconnected in the meter or not)

If you ground everything inside, that is your service disconnect, and the disconnect outside would be your emergency disconnect.

If your ground everything outside, then that is your service disconnect, and your panel inside becomes a sub panel.

What makes it complicated is when there is a "half here, half there" approach on the grounding. Water ground inside, ground rod connected outside... I don't like that approach

It doesn't matter if your panel inside is piggybacked on the backside of your outside disconnect, with only 18 inches of cable. If it grounds outside, then your inside panel is a subpanel
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ritelec said:
Just looked around in the book. I can not find where it says bond and ground at first overcurrent protection Device. Am I missing it or is it just disconnect ?

I may be starting a thread ???
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James L said:
That's why I mentioned a "half here, half there" approach to grounding. Guys are grounding outside to a ground rod, and inside to water line, ufer, etc.

That's what the OP is about.
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retirede said:
True for new installations.
But the circumstances of the original poster are that he is adding the outside disconnect. Making the inside panel a sub creates a bunch more work separating EGCs and neutrals. Add to that the fact that his inspector told him he did not need to separate them.
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yes that’s correct the 200 amp main breaker panel already exists
 
James L

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
stephen fox said:
yes that’s correct the 200 amp main breaker panel already exists
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I know in your application, you've already got the existing service. But the conversation was starting to veer off into various scenarios. That's what I was responding to when I said it seems everybody wants to make it as difficult as possible.

The first part was to you. Wherever all of your grounds are bonded together, that is your service disconnect.
 
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stephen fox

Member
Location
boston
Occupation
electrician
James L said:
I know in your application, you've already got the existing service. But the conversation was starting to veer off into various scenarios. That's what I was responding to when I said it seems everybody wants to make it as difficult as possible.

The first part was to you. Wherever all of your grounds are bonded together, that is your service disconnect.
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Well that’s wrong inspector said ground rods outside to meter is fine
And water meter grounds to panel are perfectly fine
 
James L

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
stephen fox said:
Well that’s wrong inspector said ground rods outside to meter is fine
And water meter grounds to panel are perfectly fine
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No, it's not wrong. I addressed your scenario in post #21 where I wrote:

*****
It all hangs on where your grounding terminates... in the panel or in your disconnect outside (regardless if that disconnected in the meter or not)

If you ground everything inside, that is your service disconnect, and the disconnect outside would be your emergency disconnect.

If your ground everything outside, then that is your service disconnect, and your panel inside becomes a sub panel.

What makes it complicated is when there is a "half here, half there" approach on the grounding. Water ground inside, ground rod connected outside... I don't like that approach

It doesn't matter if your panel inside is piggybacked on the backside of your outside disconnect, with only 18 inches of cable. If it grounds outside, then your inside panel is a subpanel
****
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
James L said:
No, it's not wrong. I addressed your scenario in post #21 where I wrote:

*****
It all hangs on where your grounding terminates... in the panel or in your disconnect outside (regardless if that disconnected in the meter or not)

If you ground everything inside, that is your service disconnect, and the disconnect outside would be your emergency disconnect.

If your ground everything outside, then that is your service disconnect, and your panel inside becomes a sub panel.

What makes it complicated is when there is a "half here, half there" approach on the grounding. Water ground inside, ground rod connected outside... I don't like that approach

It doesn't matter if your panel inside is piggybacked on the backside of your outside disconnect, with only 18 inches of cable. If it grounds outside, then your inside panel is a subpanel
****
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You don't have to like it but it is not a code violation either. GEC's can be connected anywhere between service disconnect and the load end of the service drop or lateral. Seen and done many with conductor to water pipe landing inside in service disconnect and ground rod landing outside in meter socket. You could also land all GEC conductors at an exterior point and still have service disconnect inside.
 
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steven765

Member
Location
NY/NH
Occupation
engineer
To comply I'm using the Siemens MM0406L1200RH, It has a 200A main and space for 4 extra breakers. If you use their triplex breaker you get the 220 for the now required whole house surge protection and 2 extra breaker's for an outlet, AC, well pump... whatever. Also snagged them on amazon for $116 w00t!
 
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shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
steven765 said:
To comply I'm using the Siemens MM0406L1200RH, It has a 200A main and space for 4 extra breakers. If you use their triplex breaker you get the 220 for the now required whole house surge protection and 2 extra breaker's for an outlet, AC, well pump... whatever. Also snagged them on amazon for $116 w00t!
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That will not comply with 2020 section 230.71 as you need a main breaker (only 1)
 
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steven765

Member
Location
NY/NH
Occupation
engineer
shortcircuit2 said:
That will not comply with 2020 section 230.71 as you need a main breaker (only 1)
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That has only 1 main breaker for the building. And is limited by the design of the panel to only accept one. The other slots are limited to standard 1" siemens breakers.

230.71(A) General. For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means installed as part of listed equipment and used solely for the following shall not be considered a service disconnecting means:

(1) Power monitoring equipment

(2) Surge-protective device(s)

(3) Control circuit of the ground-fault protection system

(4) Power-operable service disconnecting means


Form my reading and understand it must de-energize everything inside the building. Which in this case it would.

I'm more worried about 230.85 as it's a single family resi install.
 
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L

lordofthisworld

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
retirede said:
True for new installations.
But the circumstances of the original poster are that he is adding the outside disconnect. Making the inside panel a sub creates a bunch more work separating EGCs and neutrals. Add to that the fact that his inspector told him he did not need to separate them.
Click to expand...
But where is the main breaker being installed?
 
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don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Dsg319 said:
That’s what I was thinking, and personally if it was on the side of my house I’d rather have a meter/main, service/emergency disconnect rather than a big knife switch.
Click to expand...
No need to be a big knife switch...a molded case breaker or even a molded case switch would be fine.
 
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