management insight

[realolman]

The only part of what I posted that I meant to be about you was that I don't see how it's possible to spend so much time on this and other forums, without doing it on company time.... to post that allowing someone to take a couple minutes too long on a break would be stealing from your employer seems to me to be hypocritical.

I also think to call someone lazy workers in the context that this thread was started, and the context I meant, there has to be more to it than taking a couple minutes too long for breaks.

That's not at all what I meant and I don't think anyone else did either.

 

[realolman]

.... Try reading " A message to Garcia", 5 minute book max. But just as valid today as it was when it was written over 110 years ago...

I tried reding it, and in the process of finding it to read, I came across a web site where a few people expressed their opinions of the essay.

I read the essay and I have cut and pasted some of their remarks as my response to your invitation, because they are so much more eloquent than I:

I apologize for the length of this post, but this, like so many other things in life, is not nearly as black and white, or cut and dried as some of us would like things to be.

Politically speaking, this essay was beloved by the top-rung promoters-of-the-status-quo because of its sharp "sit down and shut up" message. "Do what you're told, don't think about it, and don't ask questions."


It can be a relief and a comfort to know that if you ask someone to do something, it'll get done. Those same people, however, can get you into trouble quickly. "Why did you do ___________?" "You told me to do ___________." "Yes, but .. that's obviously not what i meant LITERALLY, did you even think ... *sigh* nevermind."


My mind wanders to the time that I was at a restaurant once (the Cooker in green hills -- this is a true story): the waitress came around our large table asking us for drinks, one by one. She got to me, and I asked for "a diet coke, and a vodka martini, straight up with a twist." She asked me if diet pepsi was okay, and I nodded my assent. So, she goes off, 10 minutes later comes back with a tray of drinks, and she sets one down in front of me. I'm looking at this cocktail glass full of a watery brown liquid. Confused, I sniffed at it, and took a sip. Sure as shit, the waitress had misheard "a diet coke and vodka martini, straight up, with a twist". And the bartender made me one. Well, with Diet Pepsi. (and yes, in case you're wondering, it was repulsive.) But what boggled my mind is that neither the waitress nor the bartender stopped to think about the implausibility of someone actually ordering a "diet pepsi martini" and bothered to doublecheck. A little bit of critical thinking can go a long way.


Conversely, I've worked with people that are dogmatic in their questioning of things they're asked to do. They can be frustrating. They ask questions about everything, and they want everything explained to them. They raise irritating objections when you're trying to lay down "the law" in a meeting. Objections that are doubly irritating when you realize -- oh no! -- they have a good point. And you've now got to rethink your decision. The irritation with this, though, is pure ego, and needs to be discarded. These sorts of people can be tough to work with. You tire of working with them because of the constant explication, and you're wary of meetings because you know there's inevitably going to be an objection. And yet, consistently, these are the people I've worked with that have added the most value to our team because they are constantly actually thinking things through.


People love the essay because it allows them to view themselves as a hybrid of Hubbard and Rowan, and to view everyone else as a worthless lout. As an essay, it's undiluted pandering, and offers nothing more.


The entire text from which I cut and pasted the above can be seen at http://chris.quietlife.net/2010/04/05/a-message-to-garcia/

 

[USMC1302]

realolman:
I tried to respond, but must have gotten timed out? Did you read the actual story, or just the partial of that link? Of course we are all entitled to our own opinions, and mine is that that review is way off the mark...My takeaway from that essay is that a man/woman that puts forth effort in what they do, strives to do the right thing by themselves and others....they will always be sought out and valued. The blind obedience and all the other bs that is read into that review is amusing. I like to work in an environment where I am left alone to use my common sense and judgment in getting things done. My background and experience condone and expect that. I don't like to be micromanaged and I won't do it to others. I come from a leadership background, and unfortunately, must concur that most companies don't know the difference between "management" and leadership. I try to treat everyone with firmness, fairness, dignity and compassion and expect the same from others. But, if someone will not play well with others, they can work elsewhere.

 

[dduffee260]

It seems like the most non-productive employees whine the most. The really good hands never complain when they have to work 10 minutes past their break during a wire pull. For the record if you are in the middle of a large wire pull and stop for 10 minutes you lose about 25 minutes in reality. It still amazes me on how many demand the break but feel free to answer a personal cell call about 6 times a day.

My rules are simple, you work, make a given amount of profit on the job, you get a check and sometimes a bonus. You lose money on a job, you get a check and get terminated.

It is not hard, you just have to be a skilled craftsman of your trade and be self motivated to make it.

 

[iwire]

The only part of what I posted that I meant to be about you was that I don't see how it's possible to spend so much time on this and other forums, without doing it on company time.... to post that allowing someone to take a couple minutes too long on a break would be stealing from your employer seems to me to be hypocritical.

Yes I have posted on company time, if you feel that is the same as giving a group of employees 30 minutes extra at lunch that is your prerogative.

I also answer emails, phone calls and dispatch work in my 'off time' as we are a 24/7 service dept and my cell number is the one the customers have as point of contact. I do not put in for the 5 minutes here, the five minutes there. You want me to print my phone records, a couple of Saturdays ago I handled about 15 calls just for one service call.:roll: Friday I was dispatching people while mowing my lawn. Saturday morning between 6 and 8AM I drove to a couple of customers that had work to look at, no time put on the clock for that. When I am in the office I eat my lunch at my desk. So if you are trying to say I steel time from the company you are way off the mark.

 

[realolman]

Yes I have posted on company time, if you feel that is the same as giving a group of employees 30 minutes extra at lunch that is your prerogative.

I also answer emails, phone calls and dispatch work in my 'off time' as we are a 24/7 service dept and my cell number is the one the customers have as point of contact. I do not put in for the 5 minutes here, the five minutes there. You want me to print my phone records, a couple of Saturdays ago I handled about 15 calls just for one service call.:roll: Friday I was dispatching people while mowing my lawn. Saturday morning between 6 and 8AM I drove to a couple of customers that had work to look at, no time put on the clock for that. When I am in the office I eat my lunch at my desk. So if you are trying to say I steel time from the company you are way off the mark.

That is exactly the same argument that I have been trying to make.

A decent preson with a decent work ethic will do things and doesn't feel he needs to be paid for every little thing.

He also doesn't need to hear about it when he goes long on break, either.

A decent employer will recognize that, and understand what is more important and what is less important.

And yes there are management folks out there... the type who would worry about a couple minutes on break ... who would say your participation in this forum on company time would be inappropriate. And I think you should be able to see my "OK for me but not OK for you" point.

I could not have stated my point better than you just did.

 

[realolman]

realolman:
...My takeaway from that essay is that a man/woman that puts forth effort in what they do, strives to do the right thing by themselves and others....they will always be sought out and valued. .

That's how it should be. How does that compare with how it is?

The blind obedience and all the other bs that is read into that review is amusing. .

You can be amused if you like , but it's absolutely a promotion of the status - quo.
I'm the boss and you're not. I ( and the reader ) know what is right and good and necessary, and it is your place to carry out my wishes. I do not want your input... just your service.

Perhaps you would be better served to give differing opinions some thoughtful consideration, rather than dismissing them as bs. The essay is really not that hard to see through. Anyone in a position... military commander, company president, car sales manager could use it to try to get "his people" to try to produce results without the necessity of his having to know or understand exactly what it was he even wanted or how to get them.

I'll post this part again because I think it sums the whole thing up the best.:

People love the essay because it allows them to view themselves as a hybrid of Hubbard and Rowan, and to view everyone else as a worthless lout. As an essay, it's undiluted pandering, and offers nothing more.

 

[USMC1302]

I do value differing opinions, but it seems you do not value mine and since I disagree I am wrong? And yeah, where I come from, it is great(people doing the right thing) because that is the environment that is fostered and the expectation not the exception. I respect my employer and try to conduct myself as a professional in everything I do. I do the same for those that work with me. Simple concept

 

[realolman]

I respect my employer and try to conduct myself as a professional in everything I do. I do the same for those that work with me. Simple concept

If I have to worry about what you're doing when I'm not there, you're not the kind of person I want around for long But instead of dealing with that individual, we end up punishing everyone with asinine edicts. All I want is an honest days work for an honest days pay.

I like to work in an environment where I am left alone to use my common sense and judgment in getting things done. My background and experience condone and expect that. I don't like to be micromanaged and I won't do it to others.

I don't think we even disagree.

Except about the essay.... And I think you of all people should understand propaganda.

It doesn't come with a big red label on it's forehead saying. "This is propaganda!"

It is more subtle... That essay was written to espouse an "I (the writer) and you ( the reader) are different (better) than all those other people ( insert what ever group you don't like ) so they should do what we want ( go, serve, die, leave ) without questioning " message.

At any rate, I think this is getting out of hand, and I am getting tired of it. It is as you said a simple concept.

 

[USMC1302]

Agreed. Have a good day.

 

[growler]

I need help with a situation i was invovled in today - for the last 3 months or so ive been running a project and onlt taking one break - with that being said today i got in trouble because state mandates that we take 2 10 minute breaks and 1 30 minute break totaling 50 minutes a day. ive been taking one 25 minute a day. my reasoning has been because the 50 minute break actually turns into a 110 minute once the employees get to where there going and back. - i need help with this situation because my company is threating to strip me of my title due to lawsuits. - i got pretty steamed and would like any info on how to deal with ordeal professionally

The first thing to learn when running a job is to follow all the laws and safety regulations.

There may appear to be an easier and faster method to accomplish the mission by circumventing some of the rules. Often the penalties for breaking the rules out weigh the benefits and this can get a company into deep trouble.

When you work for a company they sign the checks and they are ultimately responsible for the job so they do have the final say about how things are done.

As an employee you do things their way, become a sub-contractor and you can do things your way ( right or wrong). The rules are still there but it's your choice if you decide to break them.

 

[iwire]

That is exactly the same argument that I have been trying to make.

A decent preson with a decent work ethic will do things and doesn't feel he needs to be paid for every little thing.

He also doesn't need to hear about it when he goes long on break, either.

A decent employer will recognize that, and understand what is more important and what is less important.

But what you describe above is not even close to the same thing as giving the entire crew 30 minutes extra break 'because it is Friday'.

I have guys under me that do have great work ethics and if one needs to stop on the way between calls to do a personal errand they can do that. On the other hand I also have some whiners and they get nothing extra because they never give any extra. I will admit that the 'last to show up for work, first at break, last to get up from break, first at lunch, last to get up from lunch first to be at the gang box guys' really stain my ability to follow the rules.

And yes there are management folks out there... the type who would worry about a couple minutes on break ... who would say your participation in this forum on company time would be inappropriate.

They might until they started seeing me put in for all the stuff I do on my time. :grin:

And I think you should be able to see my "OK for me but not OK for you" point.

Being further up the ladder always has and always will have advantages ........... and usually also brings a lot more stress. The guys on the site forget work at 3:30:01 PM, those up the ladder with the advantages also bring the work home with them.

 

[benaround]

From what I have seen, no matter what rung of the ladder you are on, the men that

care about what they do, bring it home, and the ones that are there for the ride, hardly

bring it to work no matter take it home.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

From what I have seen, no matter what rung of the ladder you are on, the men that

care about what they do, bring it home, and the ones that are there for the ride, hardly

bring it to work no matter take it home.

How true Frank. I would like to add that those people you are talking about will usually be the 1st ones hired and the last ones let go.

 

[realolman]

Wow, you could just try treating your employees like people and see how that works. Hour on Friday every now and then,if they've been doing a good job all week, never hurt anyone.

I have guys under me that do have great work ethics and if one needs to stop on the way between calls to do a personal errand they can do that.

There is absolutely no difference between the two.

And before you grab the calculator for the expense, don't forget to calculate the income the entire crew generates, compared to the guys under you.

 

[satcom]

There is absolutely no difference between the two.

And before you grab the calculator for the expense, don't forget to calculate the income the entire crew generates, compared to the guys under you.

I notice your in an industrial maintenance situation, a huge difference from construction and commercial service, one operates on a fixed budget, and the other may year end a loss with zero income, or an average of 3% on the low to 7% at best, many employees, fail to see the cost of operating a business, and non productive hours can drag, even the strongest business to the ground, rewarding good employees is the best way to close the income gap, but they do need to be productive employees.

 

[iwire]

There is absolutely no difference between the two.

And before you grab the calculator for the expense, don't forget to calculate the income the entire crew generates, compared to the guys under you.

There is a huge difference.

In one case only the good workers are rewarded. In the other case all the workers are rewarded even the bad ones. That will not happen under me and it should not happen under anyone.

Personally I think you have gone well beyond what you know or have experience with. How many construction crews have you run? How many construction jobs have you been the PM for? How many have you bid?

Do you understand that many jobs are being taken for almost no profit just to keep the men employed?

So while it would be great if we could just give money away at this time it cannot be.

You are a math wiz, so you must understand that the money coming in must exceed the money going out or the company dies ......... how would that death help the workers?

 

[realolman]

OK you win. I really don't care. I am glad I do not have to bid jobs or run crews... seems to distort your sense of fairness and logic.

I, nor anyone else has ever suggested that bad employees be rewarded.

You said that giving extra time on breaks was the same as stealing from the company.

There is no difference between allowing employees to run errands on company time, or participating in a forum on company time, or allowing an extra long break to a crew who you think deserves it.... one is no more stealing from the company than the other. .If you do so much on "your own time" put in for it and get paid.

However you don't seem to want to understand the logic... you just want to do what you want to do. Rationalize it any way you like ...

 

[cowboyjwc]

To better explain my point of an hour on Friday, say you bid a job for five days and the crew works their tails off and gets it done in four, now my guess is the boss made a boat load on that job and the guys made what the guys made, doesn't hurt to reward them every once in awhile.

 

[satcom]

To better explain my point of an hour on Friday, say you bid a job for five days and the crew works their tails off and gets it done in four, now my guess is the boss made a boat load on that job and the guys made what the guys made, doesn't hurt to reward them every once in awhile.

And when the same crew takes 7 days to do a 5 day job what happens? you take back the reward?