Metal Window Frame Bonding

Status
Not open for further replies.
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Great NEC discussion but the NEC has little to do with it.

An HI can recommend any safety improvements, it's up to the buyer and seller to decide if they actually get done.
 
radiopet

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
iwire said:
Great NEC discussion but the NEC has little to do with it.

An HI can recommend any safety improvements, it's up to the buyer and seller to decide if they actually get done.
Click to expand...

I did not know we were talking about Home Inspectors, I know the HI reported it but I thought it turned to the age old debate on the intent...I though it was another conversation about the intent of bonding metal window frames within 5' of a pool...;)

guess I moved past the HI portion of the question.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
radiopet said:
I did not know we were talking about Home Inspectors, I know the HI reported it but I thought it turned to the age old debate on the intent...I though it was another conversation about the intent of bonding metal window frames within 5' of a pool...;)

guess I moved past the HI portion of the question.
Click to expand...

I was not trying to stop the discussion of code requirements, it is a good one. :)

Just pointing out that as far as the opening posters question the fact this is not a real code inspection means the NEC has little to nothing to do with it. :)


radiopet said:
No but their opinion has more weight than most of us in those respects.

These authors do garner some respect and it is published by the NFPA.

Mark W. Earley, P.E.
Editor-in-Chief
Jeffrey S. Sargent
Managing Editor
Joseph V. Sheehan, P.E.
Editor
E. William Buss, P.E.
Editor
Click to expand...



I also can't help it, I have to say it. The opinions of the authors of the NECH mean as much, or as little as anyones opinion. There is a reason that they put a disclaimer in the front of the NECH. :cool:
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
radiopet said:
No but their opinion has more weight than most of us in those respects.

These authors do garner some respect and it is published by the NFPA.

Mark W. Earley, P.E.
Editor-in-Chief
Jeffrey S. Sargent
Managing Editor
Joseph V. Sheehan, P.E.
Editor
E. William Buss, P.E.
Editor
Click to expand...
I really don't care who wrote the handbook, the opinions in there are no more valid than those posted on this site. The only valid opinion is a FI that has gone through the proper channels. From the handbook:
The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not a part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA (which can be obtained only through requests processed by the responsible technical committees in accordance with the published procedures of the NFPA). The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore, solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees.
Click to expand...
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
radiopet said:
While the verbiage is not in the NEC the way it is written in the Handbook. I think many can argue their intent even if we dont always agree on it.

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metalsheathed
cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed
metal parts shall be bonded.
Exception No. 1: Those separated from the pool by a permanent
barrier shall not be required to be bonded.
Exception No. 2: Those greater than 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally
of the inside walls of the pool shall not be required to
be bonded.
Exception No. 3: Those greater than 3.7 m (12 ft) measured
vertically above the maximum water level of the pool,
or as measured vertically above any observation stands,
towers, or platforms, or any diving structures, shall not be
required to be bonded.

With that said..."Mr. Abernathy" gave you a version of what the NECH says and what many people believe. I personally feel the bonding of a metal window frame which is installed on a wood framed house for the most part would be pointless......but what is written is what is written and if the editor and chiefs and Senior NFPA Engineers want to get it wrong...for be it for me to argue against their position. I have my own positions, you asked what the NEC says and thats what I posted.
Click to expand...
The problem I have with this section is the "title" part: "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment". This governs what the section can apply to and it is not really clear that it applies to other than electrical equipment.
 
radiopet

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
lol.....did no one read my OTHER replies regarding the handbook also...lol....how about my quotes from the other thread I posted. I know fully well the HECH is an opinion and I say it clearly in the other discussion regarding the topic at hand. The NECH is a great tool for additional confirmation of what other may feel......and I have my own opinion on it as stated.

I have also stated why Mike Holt changed his image in the other thread I linked too. Bob is right in that it is a great topic but not sure if it will get clearer in 2011 since I said I was gonna propose it along with Mike Holt doing it ( as stated in my other thread over a year ago ) but I forgot...I did not do it....I dropped the ball but I can't see if Mike actually did propose anything since I dont have my 2011 ROP handly and the one I try to download wont work.
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
This post I made ,.. from the link Paul provided,.. sums up my view pretty much... Keep in mind that 680.26(b)(5) allows metal parts to remain un- bonded if they meet the size limitation.

I guess the thing that bugs me is this ,..when a person says 680.26(B)(7) says
" It says all fixed metal parts " to justify bonding whatever it is thatthey feel justly deserves bonding ....

And then when it is stated that " all fixed metal parts " includes all kinds of things some large , some small ,..some likely to become energized some thought to be very un-likely to become energized (not sure that matters much at all),..they now have turn their back on the encompassing word " all " . I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too ,..

When I read this ,..like Charlie suggests,.. in order to agree with the "all metal parts" folks I have to disregard the defined heading of the sub section of which the sentence speaks ... and now I have to say well they can't mean letter slots , hinges , bird feeders , fixed gas grills,. window frames , doors , surely they can't mean all fixed metal within 5' of the inside edge ,..This makes no sense to me

So now I look and see the definition of equipment and I can Identify a metal wiring method and so,..now when I read the section it makes sense to me ,..all fixed metal parts of equipment and metal wirng methods need to be bonded no matter the size it must be bonded..and I can see the wisdom ,..I don't have to turn my back on the word all...

Having said all of this I have my own idea about bonding which exceeds the minimum,..not quite "all fixed metal parts" but a good deal of it :smile:

Quote:
(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

Equipment
A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of or in connection with, an electrical installation.
Click to expand...
 
M

macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Just to clear the air, I have full respect for the magnificent work done by the authors of the handbook each time it comes out. I think there is a clear difference between it and the actual code book however for the same reasons Don and Iwire state. I see it as very informed opinion, having no legal standing. However the wording in the handbook associated to 680.26 (used to have different numbers ) about window frame bonding has shown up for many cycles that I can remember, at least back to 84 that I can check in my office, and has yet to get into the actual code. Must be a reason for that.
 
radiopet

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
don_resqcapt19 said:
To whom do they have more weight???
Click to expand...
Wow...you guys have a nature to pick apart the simpliest of statements. Ok....I happen to highly respect Mr. Sargent and Mr. Early.....are you happy?

I think many more people know them than me......or most of us here so they have a history of giving solid backing to many NEC positions. I like that my interps are respected ( maybe not here...lol...but in some circles ) as well....but i respect those authors. Does that make it wrong....? I have stated in this thread and in the one i linked that I happen to believe the metal window frame is overkill.....but unless it is spelled out better the debate will continue. Sad thing is I did not submit a proposal on it so I have basis or a real stance because I was silent on it.....when I had my chance.
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
radiopet said:
.......I have stated in this thread and in the one i linked that I happen to believe the metal window frame is overkill.....but unless it is spelled out better the debate will continue. Sad thing is I did not submit a proposal on it so I have basis or a real stance because I was silent on it.....when I had my chance.
Click to expand...

Well this guy took a shot at it ,.. I just wonder what "ALL" includes??

I guess this panel believes that the NEC should better reflect what the comentary in the handbook says ,.. Good grief

(Don,.perhaps this is what Paul is talking about)



17-184 Log #1708 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.26(B)(7))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: David Barnhart, City of Portland
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Fixed Metal Parts, Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal sheathed cables
and raceways, metal piping and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
Substantiation: The heading for 680.26(B)(7) leads one to believe that it only
covers installations that are part of ?Wiring Methods and Equipment?. This
makes it difficult to include metal fences, awnings, door frames, etc. as
referenced in the 2008 NEC Handbook.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 680.26(B)(7) to read as follows:
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including, but
not limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal
awnings, metal fences, and metal door and window frames.
Exceptions to be retained.
Panel Statement: CMP-17 edits the submitter?s text to ensure that all fixed
metal parts (e.g., electrical equipment, fences, lamp posts) are included.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
_______________________________________________________________
Click to expand...
​
​

 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
M. D. said:
...
(Don,.perhaps this is what Paul is talking about)
Click to expand...
I understand the code issue and submitted a proposal on the issue.

My point is that while the editors of the handbook are very knowledgeable about the code, I don't see them as more knowledgeable than many who post on this forum, including Paul. Just because they edit the handbook does not mean that their opinions on the code are the correct opinions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top