Microwaves

[FionaZuppa]

Even if you render one on a duplex inoperative ?

how are you rendering it inoperative? maybe break the tabs and fill the recept holes with a epoxy-putty?? no, whats on the yoke is what counts. its a art-100 definition.

 

[peter d]

If we're running a 15A circuit to a cabinet for an above range microwave unit, does the receptacle have to be a single or can it be a duplex ? Singles are generally a bit more $$ but I don't carry them on the truck. If a single is required is it acceptable to snap off the tab on the hot side and,in effect, make it a single ?

Nothing in the NEC requires it to be a single receptacle.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Nothing in the NEC requires it to be a single receptacle.

the AHJ inspector comes and s/he says "put a single there", do you argue to get the inspection passed? i dont think i would be arguing that broken tab on a dual recept yoke is a single recept, because art-100 definition says its not, etc.

for some reason, inspectors believe that indi-bc's should have just enough receptacles to supply the "equipment". if a microwave needs a indi-bc and the microwave has just one plug, then install just one receptacle. if the microwave has two plugs and a 20A indi-bc is good, then one outlet with a duplex is what you install. i suspect thats how they are reading it.

 

[goldstar]

the AHJ inspector comes and s/he says "put a single there", do you argue to get the inspection passed? i dont think i would be arguing that broken tab on a dual recept yoke is a single recept, because art-100 definition says its not, etc.

for some reason, inspectors believe that indi-bc's should have just enough receptacles to supply the "equipment". if a microwave needs a indi-bc and the microwave has just one plug, then install just one receptacle. if the microwave has two plugs and a 20A indi-bc is good, then one outlet with a duplex is what you install. i suspect thats how they are reading it.

I agree that I would not start an argument with an EI over what constitutes a single or a duplex. For the sake of moving the job forward I would just change out the receptacle to satisfy the issue. However, breaking off the tabs on a duplex serves the same purpose so if the argument came down to whether I should have installed a single or not I believe I have met the intent of the code.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I agree that I would not start an argument with an EI over what constitutes a single or a duplex. For the sake of moving the job forward I would just change out the receptacle to satisfy the issue. However, breaking off the tabs on a duplex serves the same purpose so if the argument came down to whether I should have installed a single or not I believe I have met the intent of the code.

breaking off the tabs, per art-100, does not turn a duplex recept yoke into a single recept yoke.

your intent is good, nec says "no-go", etc.

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the
outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single
receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact
device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or
more contact devices on the same yoke.

 

[goldstar]

breaking off the tabs, per art-100, does not turn a duplex recept yoke into a single recept yoke.

your intent is good, nec says "no-go", etc.

Thanks for the clarification and doing the research.

 

[Smart $]

Thanks for the clarification and doing the research.

FWIW, the argument is moot. The distinguishing property is whether the 120V receptacle is on an SABC or not. You cannot put a microwave in a kitchen on a 120V 15A circuit if the receptacle it plugs into is supposed to be on an SABC. Other than for a refrigerator, only the following kitchen receptacles can be non-SABC:

(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with
210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor

Now say you have a non-SABC qualifying receptacle... there is nothing in Code that directly requires a single receptacle or an individual branch circuit. Indirectly, the manufacturer instructions may call for an individual branch circuit.

There is nothing that I'm aware of that says an individual branch circuit can only be connected to one or a single receptacle. In fact, I can put as many receptacles as I want on an individual branch circuit and it remains such as long as I only power one utilization device with that circuit. Yes, there is a logic to saying only a single receptacle allowed... but that is an imprecisely-inferred deduction subtlely disguised as an unwritten restriction. :happyyes:

 

[nizak]

Fwiw. Bit of a funny story.

Not too long ago I got a call from a homeowner who was tripping the circuit on an above the range microwave.

15 amp circuit. Very nice (5000+ sq ft) custom home. Unit nameplate listed input watts at 1800/ 120V.

She said it only tripped when she would cook something for 10 minutes or so, warm ups, popcorn, etc no problem.

Looking into it, I estimate the home run was at least 125' minimum.

Fished a new 20amp circuit, no problems since.

The humor to this is that I bid that job and was almost $5K higher.

Since I fixed the microwave issue, I have been back several times and fixed a variety of problems. Most all were because of going cheap. It met minimum code, but was simply wrong.

-3 bedrooms ( receps and lighting) 2 bathrooms( lighting) and a few hall receps all on a 15 amp circuit.

- 2 door openers( commercial style), 4 garage wall receps, and 2 outside receps all on a 15 amp circuit. Upright freezer, and outdoor holiday lighting did that one in.

The list goes on.....

 

[peter d]

Fwiw. Bit of a funny story.

Not too long ago I got a call from a homeowner who was tripping the circuit on an above the range microwave.

15 amp circuit. Very nice (5000+ sq ft) custom home. Unit nameplate listed input watts at 1800/ 120V.

She said it only tripped when she would cook something for 10 minutes or so, warm ups, popcorn, etc no problem.

Looking into it, I estimate the home run was at least 125' minimum.

Fished a new 20amp circuit, no problems since.

The humor to this is that I bid that job and was almost $5K higher.

I agree, a 20 amp circuit would have been a better choice in that situation.

Since I fixed the microwave issue, I have been back several times and fixed a variety of problems. Most all were because of going cheap. It met minimum code, but was simply wrong.

-3 bedrooms ( receps and lighting) 2 bathrooms( lighting) and a few hall receps all on a 15 amp circuit.

- 2 door openers( commercial style), 4 garage wall receps, and 2 outside receps all on a 15 amp circuit. Upright freezer, and outdoor holiday lighting did that one in.

The list goes on.....

I think three bedrooms on one circuit is not the best design but if the house has central a/c, how much load is a bedroom circuit ever going to see anyway? I usually put 2 bedrooms on one circuit myself.

 

[readydave8]

Fwiw. Bit of a funny story.

Not too long ago I got a call from a homeowner who was tripping the circuit on an above the range microwave.

15 amp circuit. Very nice (5000+ sq ft) custom home. Unit nameplate listed input watts at 1800/ 120V.

She said it only tripped when she would cook something for 10 minutes or so, warm ups, popcorn, etc no problem.

Looking into it, I estimate the home run was at least 125' minimum.

Fished a new 20amp circuit, no problems since.

The humor to this is that I bid that job and was almost $5K higher.

Since I fixed the microwave issue, I have been back several times and fixed a variety of problems. Most all were because of going cheap. It met minimum code, but was simply wrong.

-3 bedrooms ( receps and lighting) 2 bathrooms( lighting) and a few hall receps all on a 15 amp circuit.

- 2 door openers( commercial style), 4 garage wall receps, and 2 outside receps all on a 15 amp circuit. Upright freezer, and outdoor holiday lighting did that one in.

The list goes on.....

How much have they spent so far fixing the $5k cheaper work?

 

[nizak]

Would have to pull invoices and see. I'm guessing a few thousand, plus the aggravation for them.

 

[JFletcher]

Would have to pull invoices and see. I'm guessing a few thousand, plus the aggravation for them.

Serves em right. Had they spent that extra $5-10 on the initial install and gotten a 20A circuit for the microwave vs a 15, they'd have saved hundreds, plus the aggravation, down the road. I always try to upsell these kinds of things, tho, in the long run, electricians make out better installing marginal but code-compliant wiring then upgrading it after the fact... just not the electrician who did the original wiring.

 

[user 100]

Serves em right. Had they spent that extra $5-10 on the initial install and gotten a 20A circuit for the microwave vs a 15, they'd have saved hundreds, plus the aggravation, down the road.

And they probably splurged and spent a fortune on all kinds of aesthetical crap that provides no real benefit to the utility of the structure.:happyyes:

 

[JFletcher]

And they probably splurged and spent a fortune on all kinds of aesthetical crap that provides no real benefit to the utility of the structure.:happyyes:

Yep. We've had HOs do $50k kitchen remodels, brag about their rare Italian tiger-stripe granite countertops costing almost five figures alone, then in the next breath bemoan the need for a $20 GFCI receptacle or the cost of the hidden fastener coverplates. :happysad:

 

[FionaZuppa]

15A or 20A ocpd, doesnt matter, that was not the question.

if it to be a single recept you cant break the tabs off of a duplex and call that a single.

when you mash all the nec verbiage together a inspector will apply some logic, and i believe it is something like this:

as we have already said, a indi-bc is not restricted to single recept, for good reason, as already mentioned, the util equip may need more than one recept. ok, thats good, but if the util equip has just one cord cap then the indi-bc should support whats needed, thus a single recept is all that is needed, and as such a single recept should be installed.

the example of a shop that has outlets all around the room for a single drill press that has just one cord cap, does not really fit the nec verbiage and its intentions, etc.

again, i believe much of this could be clarified if the art-100 def for indi-bc was changed to say "one outlet", which can provide enough power to any util equip. this would prevent anyone from saying the room with 10 outlets is for a indi-bc for the drill press, etc. the other logic still applies, only install what is needed by the util equip when the ckt is designated "indi-bc".

does that make logical sense?

 

[Smart $]

15A or 20A ocpd, doesnt matter, that was not the question.

if it to be a single recept you cant break the tabs off of a duplex and call that a single.

when you mash all the nec verbiage together a inspector will apply some logic, and i believe it is something like this:

as we have already said, a indi-bc is not restricted to single recept, for good reason, as already mentioned, the util equip may need more than one recept. ok, thats good, but if the util equip has just one cord cap then the indi-bc should support whats needed, thus a single recept is all that is needed, and as such a single recept should be installed.

the example of a shop that has outlets all around the room for a single drill press that has just one cord cap, does not really fit the nec verbiage and its intentions, etc.

again, i believe much of this could be clarified if the art-100 def for indi-bc was changed to say "one outlet", which can provide enough power to any util equip. this would prevent anyone from saying the room with 10 outlets is for a indi-bc for the drill press, etc. the other logic still applies, only install what is needed by the util equip when the ckt is designated "indi-bc".

does that make logical sense?

But our drill press is going to be extremely mobile on four wheels... and we are literally going to plug it in and use it at several locations around the shop. :blink:

So do you see the trees when you look at the forest...

 

[FionaZuppa]

But our drill press is going to be extremely mobile on four wheels... and we are literally going to plug it in and use it at several locations around the shop. :blink:

So do you see the trees when you look at the forest...

8 locations, then install one outlet on 8 indi-bc's
otherwise what you have is a gp-bc
the actual layout relative to the in-use equip is relevant, etc

you may argue its all indi-bc for one drill press, no AHJ inspector will likely pass that.

 

[Smart $]

8 locations, then install one outlet on 8 indi-bc's
otherwise what you have is a gp-bc
the actual layout relative to the in-use equip is relevant, etc

you may argue its all indi-bc for one drill press, no AHJ inspector will likely pass that.

He may not pass it, but if simply following Code, he has no grounds to fail it.

You can talk intent all you want, but at the end of the day if that intent isn't spelled out explicitly in black and white, you'll be having the same discussion tomorrow.

 

[FionaZuppa]

He may not pass it, but if simply following Code, he has no grounds to fail it.

You can talk intent all you want, but at the end of the day if that intent isn't spelled out explicitly in black and white, you'll be having the same discussion tomorrow.

at the end of the day, AHJ has final say so. even if you went to court, unless you prove the AHJ has grossly misinterpreted the nec verbiage, AHJ wins. a snafu in nec verbiage of which the AHJ has effective opinion about, AHJ wins.

nec needs some fixin, etc.

 

[Smart $]

at the end of the day, AHJ has final say so. even if you went to court, unless you prove the AHJ has grossly misinterpreted the nec verbiage, AHJ wins. a snafu in nec verbiage of which the AHJ has effective opinion about, AHJ wins.

AHJ yes... but that's not the same as an individual representative of the AHJ, as in a single inspector.