Misuse of Equipment

[mdshunk]

How many 12 AWG THHNs will the NEC allow?

About 270.

The rule of thumb for me for how to recognize 40% fill is when you beat the conductors into the gutter space with the butt of your hammer and can still get the cover on. That's exactly 40%.

 

[iwire]

About 270.

The rule of thumb for me for how to recognize 40% fill is when you beat the conductors into the gutter space with the butt of your hammer and can still get the cover on. That's exactly 40%.

I think even then you probably really did not hit 40% and that the NEC even mentions 70% fill is a laughable.

BTW 270 is what I came up with.

 

[mivey]

How many 12 AWG THHNs will the NEC allow?

270 #12 like iwire said, but I know this is your panel so we can allow 371 of the correct conductors.

Now, how many wires would be there with a full box, and how many PPC1's can we stack in there? Let's say 63 #12's and service cable, etc and say we have used 2.16 in^2. That leaves 1.44 in^2 for the PPC1's.

[edit: make that 371]

 

[roger]

270 #12 like iwire said, but I know this is your panel so we can allow 370 of the correct conductors.

Now, how many wires would be there with a full box, and how many PPC1's can we stack in there? Let's say 63 #12's and service cable, etc and say we have used 2.16 in^2. That leaves 1.44 in^2 for the PPC1's.

So those installing one PPC1 are in like Flint and all is fine. :wink:

Life is good.

If only we had a poll that applied to the conversation at hand life would be great.

Roger

 

[mivey]

So those installing one PPC1 are in like Flint and all is fine. :wink:

Life is good.

If only we had a poll that applied to the conversation at hand life would be great.

Roger

Yeah, we know about you and polls.:grin:

 

[roger]

Yeah, we know about you and polls.:grin:

What????

Roger

 

[brian john]

Anyway to modify the poll?

 

[mdshunk]

Anyway to modify the poll?

It's hard to modify a Pol. The culture is deeply ingrained.

 

[joe tedesco]

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.

This is the real reason for 312.8

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.

Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.

My poll was generous so that the special permission (see definition in Article 100) could be considered if someone wants to use the cabinet for installing other equipment.

 

[joe tedesco]

All you can eat, for $5.50. How could a guy resist?

Where is this place?

PS: Cabinets are listed, see the attachment.

 

[mdshunk]

Where is this place?

Las Cruces, New Mexico

 

[iwire]

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.

Gee why didn't anyone say 312.8 before in this thread?

This is the real reason for 312.8

Joe, if 'the real reason' was only the picture you show the rule would proably be in 408. Sure it applies to what you showed, but it is not limited to that at all.

OCPDs are not always part of a panelboard.

 

[joe tedesco]

Special Permission. The written consent of the authority having jurisdiction.

Special Permission. The written consent of the authority having jurisdiction.

Gee why didn't anyone say 312.8 before in this thread?





Joe, if 'the real reason' was only the picture you show the rule would proably be in 408. Sure it applies to what you showed, but it is not limited to that at all.

OCPDs are not always part of a panelboard.

312.8 has been referenced many times in previous posts here. The rule was originally in 373 long before the 408 rules, which were 384 rules during the same time as 373.

My proposal will be acted upon for the 2011 NEC.

The poll here is in line with what some say is OK, so let them agree YES:

Special Permission. The written consent of the authority having jurisdiction.

90.4: By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety.

 

[George Stolz]

The poll here is in line with what some say is OK, so let them agree YES:

Special Permission. The written consent of the authority having jurisdiction.

90.4: By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety.

I ... think ... that ... people ... are ... trying ... to ... tell ... you ... that ... special ... permission ... is ... not ... required ... to ... install ... the ... device ... in ... the ... cabinet.

 

[joe tedesco]

Moderators

Moderators

I ... think ... that ... people ... are ... trying ... to ... tell ... you ... that ... special ... permission ... is ... not ... required ... to ... install ... the ... device ... in ... the ... cabinet.

I have identified the rules and reasons for them, and already submitted a proposal to give those the opportunity to put whatever they want in the cabinet.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1511&d=1207910491

This is the real reason for 312.8

On another note I respectively submit that you and some of the other Moderators here all too often answer questions immediately and constantly, and don't give the membership, some of whom are in the trade and in the NEC process for many more years, the floor.

Please respect that fact!

I would think that they should moderate as the word describes, and avoid innuendos and posting insults to some.

My poll is asking a simple question, since the use of a cabinet as I have first posted is in violation of 312.8.

You have some time to research this too, look at the old Preprints, TCR's, and TCD's available from NFPA.

This is the real reason for 312.8

 

[wbalsam1]

I ... think ... that ... people ... are ... trying ... to ... tell ... you ... that ... special ... permission ... is ... not ... required ... to ... install ... the ... device ... in ... the ... cabinet.

I have the overwhelming sense that this method of typing is intended to be sourcastic.

As a moderator you are being held (at least by me) to a higher standard. Here's a little bit of information on the person you are being (IMHO)sourcastic to:

Joe Tedesco, IAEI Certified, Massachusetts Licensed Master Electrician, NEC Consultant and Trainer Nationwide. Joe Tedesco is certified as a one and two family, general electrical inspector and electrical plans examiner by IAEI. Joe is licensed as a Journeyman and Master Electrician in Massachusetts, and holds a lifetime occupational teacher's approval as an electrical instructor in Massachusetts and California.

Joe worked for various electrical contracting firms and industrial companies as an apprentice, helper, journeyman and maintenance electrician in New York City, Long Island and New England. As a civilian employee Joe worked as an electrician for the Department of the Army in Fort Totten, NY and Milford, CT. He was Assistant Electrical Inspector for the City of New Haven, CT and Senior Electrical Inspector for the Cities of Glendale and Pasadena, CA. He was an Electrical Designer and Electrical Inspector for Store, Matakovich and Wolfberg, Electrical, Plumbing and Mechanical Engineers in Elmonte, CA.

Joe was an Electrical Field Service Specialist for the NFPA and Staff Liaison to Code Making Panels for the NEC NEC 70 Technical Committee and the Committee on Electrical Equipment of Industrial Machinery NFPA 79. He assisted in the editing of the NEC-TCR and TCD, and Advanced Printings of the NEC and served as an Associate Editor for the 1984 National Electrical Code Handbook. Joe also assisted in the development of, and was an electrical code instructor for, the NFPA NEC workshops and seminars held nationwide.

Joe was a former member of the National Electrical Code Committee, and represented the IAEI on the NCPCCI Electrical Advisory Board. Joe has trained apprentice, journeymen and master electricians to prepare them for their first journeyman or master electrical contractors license and is certified as a code update provider in Massachusetts. Memberships: IAEI and NFPA.

I am almost positive that Mike Holt would not behave in this extraordinarily rude manner.

 

[joe tedesco]

I have the overwhelming sense that this method of typing is intended to be sourcastic.

As a moderator you are being held (at least by me) to a higher standard. Here's a little bit of information on the person you are being (IMHO)sourcastic to:

Joe Tedesco, IAEI Certified, Massachusetts Licensed Master Electrician, NEC Consultant and Trainer Nationwide. Joe Tedesco is certified as a one and two family, general electrical inspector and electrical plans examiner by IAEI. Joe is licensed as a Journeyman and Master Electrician in Massachusetts, and holds a lifetime occupational teacher's approval as an electrical instructor in Massachusetts and California.

Joe worked for various electrical contracting firms and industrial companies as an apprentice, helper, journeyman and maintenance electrician in New York City, Long Island and New England. As a civilian employee Joe worked as an electrician for the Department of the Army in Fort Totten, NY and Milford, CT. He was Assistant Electrical Inspector for the City of New Haven, CT and Senior Electrical Inspector for the Cities of Glendale and Pasadena, CA. He was an Electrical Designer and Electrical Inspector for Store, Matakovich and Wolfberg, Electrical, Plumbing and Mechanical Engineers in Elmonte, CA.

Joe was an Electrical Field Service Specialist for the NFPA and Staff Liaison to Code Making Panels for the NEC NEC 70 Technical Committee and the Committee on Electrical Equipment of Industrial Machinery NFPA 79. He assisted in the editing of the NEC-TCR and TCD, and Advanced Printings of the NEC and served as an Associate Editor for the 1984 National Electrical Code Handbook. Joe also assisted in the development of, and was an electrical code instructor for, the NFPA NEC workshops and seminars held nationwide.

Joe was a former member of the National Electrical Code Committee, and represented the IAEI on the NCPCCI Electrical Advisory Board. Joe has trained apprentice, journeymen and master electricians to prepare them for their first journeyman or master electrical contractors license and is certified as a code update provider in Massachusetts. Memberships: IAEI and NFPA.

I am almost positive that Mike Holt would not behave in this extraordinarily rude manner.

Exactly! and from someone who knows better!

 

[iwire]

I have the overwhelming sense that this method of typing is intended to be sourcastic.

I can not speak for George but it was my impression he was expressing his frustration that Joe can not answer anyones questions directly, Joe just cuts and paste code sections.

I find it frustrating as well.

I know who Joe is, that is why I expect more from him then just copied code sections.

 

[joe tedesco]

http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19849&d=1206505973

http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19849&d=1206505973

The facts are in the actual code text and the reports, I am prepared to settle the issues in a public forum and in front of real people, not behind the keyboard!

So far no one here in the roll of Moderator has accepted that challenge!

 

[roger]

The facts are in the actual code text and the reports, I am prepared to settle the issues in a public forum and in front of real people, not behind the keyboard!

So far no one here in the roll of Moderator has accepted that challenge!

Joe, the problem with that is, that all the others in this thread would be left out.

You started the conversation (thread) with a keyboard so, defend it with a keyboard and type your own thoughts and words, otherwise admit the stalemate and move on.

I'm sure you have notice the lack of participation in your poll, doesn't that make it apparent that it is not asking the correct questions?

Roger