Misuse of Equipment

[mdshunk]

So, using that logic:

If a police officer pulls you over and gives you a ticket for speeding, but does not cite a law regarding speeding, does that mean you were not speeding? Does it mean there is no law against speeding? Does it mean you are not required to obey all traffic laws?

Back... there is not NEC violation to cite, and that's the whole point. I know you're pretty new in this trade, but if there's no violation, there's no violation.

 

[iwire]

So, using that logic:

If a police officer pulls you over and gives you a ticket for speeding, but does not cite a law regarding speeding, does that mean you were not speeding?

No, it means the ticket is invalid as in this State they must place a citation number on it. :grin:

But forget that.

What it means is the manufacturer may not like it installed on a panel but until they go out and get the device listed, or they label the product directly with mounting instructions it is not an NEC violation.

Can I ask you this?

What is the section you say this violates?

312.8?

110.3(B)?

Help me out here.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Back... there is not NEC violation to cite, and that's the whole point. I know you're pretty new in this trade, but if there's no violation, there's no violation.

There have been code violations to cite. But most everyone won't agree with them, even ones the OP has stated.

And I'm not new to the trade, new to the forum, but not new to the trade. I've been working as an electricain for 15 years. So if you state: "I know you are pretty new in this trade." I think your IQ just went down a few pegs.

I believe it is a violation and have cited code to the same. Although some disagree with my opinion, that's fine. We are all entitled to our own opinion. Not everyone will agree with what another says, and rarely are other minds changed on what they believe.

I respect your opinions on this thread and would appreciate the same of mine and others that differ from yours.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

.

Can I ask you this?

What is the section you say this violates?

312.8?

110.3(B)?

Help me out here.

312.8 shall not be used...unless adequate space

110.3(A)(1-8)

110.3(B) I realize the product has not been listed or labeled and agree that this section cannot be enforced until it is. But if listing and labeling have to be used per manufacturer instructions, why not follow manufacturer instructions when not listed or labeled?

I don't expect you to believe someone like me who has been in the trade for 15 years, when you don't believe someone like th OP who has been in the trade more than 40 years with his main focus being the NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

110.3(B) I realize the product has not been listed or labeled and agree that this section cannot be enforced until it is. But if listing and labeling have to be used per manufacturer instructions, why not follow manufacturer instructions when not listed or labeled?

The code does not require you to follow the manufacturer's instructions. It requires you to follow the instructions included in the listing and labeling.

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

To me that means if it is not in the White Book, it is not a listing and labeling instruction.

 

[joe tedesco]

Poll The Question

Poll The Question

This bulletin board doesn't have a poll function, and from what I can see the subject of the question is considered to be a violation by many.

I asked a simple question, and I already knew what I was going to say, but decided to post it on this board too because I was sure it would become a long winded discussion.

The original picture shows equipment that was not designed to be crammed into the space used for conductors in a cabinet, and yet the words in the manual seem to be what is confusing those who are set in their interpretation.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

The code does not require you to follow the manufacturer's instructions. It requires you to follow the instructions included in the listing and labeling.

To me that means if it is not in the White Book, it is not a listing and labeling instruction.

I realize that it is not required. I said: "..why not follow manufacturer instructions when not listed or labeled?"

If you don't care about what the manufacturer says about thier product installation, why buy the product.

 

[mdshunk]

If you don't care about what the manufacturer says about thier product installation, why buy the product.

Did you seriously just say that? How about because you need a phase coupler, and that company makes one?

You still need to find the text that says you can't put anything besides a panelboard in a panelboard cabinet. So far, nobody's done that.

 

[roger]

This bulletin board doesn't have a poll function.

Joe, yes it does.

Roger

 

[mdshunk]

Can you use the Poll function if you're actually from someplace nearby like Hungary or Romania?

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Can you use the Poll function if you're actually from someplace nearby like Hungary or Romania?

Why? When are you going?

Take pictures!

 

[mdshunk]

No time soon. That just popped in my head, so I had to let it out. I am sort of hungry though. I could use a sandwich. This has been a long thread. Joe comes up with some Jim-Dandy's.

 

[frizbeedog]

No time soon. That just popped in my head, so I had to let it out. I am sort of hungry though. I could use a sandwich. This has been a long thread. Joe comes up with some Jim-Dandy's.

Don't tell me you havn't eaten since this was OP'd?

 

[mdshunk]

Don't tell me you havn't eaten since this was OP'd?

Okay, I won't tell you then, but I'm now 30 pounds slimmer.

 

[joe tedesco]

Mexican food?

Mexican food?

Mexican Food?

Menudo? :grin:

 

[mdshunk]

Mexican Food?

Menudo? :grin:

All you can eat, for $5.50. How could a guy resist?

 

[frizbeedog]

Mexican Food?

Menudo? :grin:

That was scary.

 

[cschmid]

Joe I just lost my appetite...now back to the op picture..

so we agree the wording is loose in this area and there is no clear cut winners or losers..

now we have established that the product is not UL listed and installed wrong according to the manufacturer..Whos instructions mean nothing to us because the product is not UL listed..

Now lets assume that the item catches fire and destroys the panel and causes property damage..who is liable..

it is not installed according to the manufactures instructions and the manufacturer has stated that before the accident..

So is your insurance company going to pick up the tab and will you need a new insurance company when it is done due to poor workmanship by installing devices not in accordance with the manufactures instruction..because the code says it is not UL list and you do not need to follow the instructions..which by the way I see no where in the code that it tells you to ignore manufactures instructions..

So is the NEC code the ultimate rule in wiring installations or a minimum set of standards..so an installation that is not specifically covered becomes legal even if it has a potential hazard..interesting concept..

 

[mdshunk]

So is the NEC code the ultimate rule in wiring installations or a minimum set of standards..so an installation that is not specifically covered becomes legal even if it has a potential hazard..interesting concept..

That's it, in a nutshell. Those that don't like it are free to draft a code change proposal.

 

[cschmid]

I believe Joe is already working on it...I hope he is not working on that pork or what ever it was..:grin: