Misuse of Equipment

[BackInTheHabit]

I had someting to say but then I reread your post. So none of this makes sense.

except this....

It can't leagally be cited as a violation, but none of us would do an install like that.....Right?

....or so thats what I gathered from this mental turmoil (excercise).....(thread).

Wether or not it can be cited for an NEC violation is still under debate. I don't believe we'll have a true consensus either way.

I believe it is a bad install and would not do it that way myself.

 

[iwire]

I'll take all points mentioned here and consider on them some more. It seems that 312.8 should fill an entire page with all the interpretations we have here.

Just curious: If the panel had all GFCI or AFCI breakers, as per photo, would that make a difference to anyone wether or not it is NEC compliant?

No

312.8 has nothing to do with panel boards, GFCIs or AFCIs.

312.8 is about is ANY enclosure that contains overcurrent devices.

 

[cschmid]

okay now I have a question here..when we are counting the space requirments in 312.8..is the area measured the area from where the breaker itself ends then measured to the side of the panel or is it from where the breaker is locked onto the panel and measured to the side of the panel..I hope I stated that clearly..

EDited to add..So how do we determine the offical wiring space of an area in a panel..

312.7 Space in Enclosures.
Cabinets and cutout boxes shall have sufficient space to accommodate all conductors installed in them without crowding.
312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.
Most enclosures are intended to accommodate only those conductors connected to terminals for switches or overcurrent devices within the enclosures themselves. Where adequate space is provided for additional conductors, such as control circuits, the total conductor fill in the enclosure may not exceed 40 percent of the cross section of the wiring space in the enclosure and no more than 75 percent if splices or taps are necessary.
Application Example
If an enclosure has a wiring space of 4 in. wide by 3 in. deep, the cross-sectional area is 12 in.2 Thus, the total conductor fill (see Chapter 9, Table 5 for dimensions of conductors) at any cross section cannot exceed 4.8 in.2 (40 percent of 12 in.2), and the maximum space for conductors and splices or taps at any cross section cannot exceed 9 in.2 (75 percent of 12 in.2).
In general, the best way to avoid overcrowding enclosures is to properly plan and lay out work before installation and use properly sized auxiliary gutters (366.22, 366.56, and 366.58) or junction boxes (314.16 and 314.28). See 430.10 and the associated commentary for wiring space in enclosures for motor controllers and disconnecting means. See also 110.59 for tunnel installations over 600 volts.

 

[petersonra]

It only has one conductor in it. :smile:

BTW, its not completed in that picture, still waiting to finish it.

you did not break the wire at the lug?

 

[petersonra]

I am not convinced that the inards of a control panel is covered by the NEC, except for those found in article 409.

 

[jwelectric]

I am not convinced that the inards of a control panel is covered by the NEC, except for those found in article 409.

Just what are you talking about in this statement?
Are you talking about the board that the control equipment is mounted on or are you talking about the enclosure that the board is installed in?

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Contacted Underwriters Laboratories yesterday regarding this topic. Powerline Control Systems does have some units that are UL listed and labeled. The PPC-1 does not have a UL listing or labeling and not current documentation to do so.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

No

312.8 has nothing to do with panel boards, GFCIs or AFCIs.

312.8 is about is ANY enclosure that contains overcurrent devices.

What about 110.3(B)?

 

[mivey]

...312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices....unless adequate space for this purpose is provided...

This leads to another question. Is there a difference between adequate space and space for this purpose? What I mean is: If you have plenty of space, but the space is not specifically spelled out to be used for taps, raceways, etc, can you still use it for taps, raceways, etc.?

 

[cschmid]

Mivey thats a good point..so if the space is not listed for the purpose than I guess it would be a violation of the space unless it had an engineers approval on it..would that be a correct statement or could an engineer even approve an installation in a space that was not approved for that device..Or does it not have to meet code because the code does cover that data..

 

[weressl]

But is it a violation?

In my opinion there is no violation here.

The unit does not appear to have UL listing so 110.3(B) does not apply to it.

If Square D says "SQ D allows nothing to be install ed inside their panels except SQ D products" thats a problem as Square D does not make wire, wire nuts, connectors tape etc.

Can I install a little motor inside, just because I have a need for it? Or a water fountain?

I think it is clear that the Square D panel is built to include the equipment that it is intended to be used for and to accomodate any other necessary third party equipment that is essential for the intended utilization of such equipment such as single and multiconductor cables, splices, etc. The manufacturer will make reasonable effort to take all potential installation methods into consideration during design and that the equipment can accomodate those.

The manufacturer of the equipment in question CLEARLY indicates that the device should not be mounted inside of a CB or fuse panel but that it should have its own enclosure.

 

[weressl]

This whole business of Square D not wanting anything mounted in their panels is bunk. The new automatic transfer panel gets 3rd party equipment mounted inside it. Powerlogic panels get weird stuff mounted inside them.

I don't think it is bunk, see my other post.

Your argument in trying to justify is bass awkward. Just because something is done "all the time" does not make it right.

 

[weressl]

Mivey thats a good point..so if the space is not listed for the purpose than I guess it would be a violation of the space unless it had an engineers approval on it..would that be a correct statement or could an engineer even approve an installation in a space that was not approved for that device..Or does it not have to meet code because the code does cover that data..

An engineer would have no 'power' to approve it. The manufacturer is the only authority in this case unless the manufacturer designated methods in their installation instructions how to go about determining unknown equipment to be installed inside. Eg. the manufacturer can designate parameters of the 'unknown' equipment, such as size, weight, dimensions, insulation level, heat dissippation, etc.

 

[mivey]

...heat dissippation, etc.

Maybe we can use this:grin::

Can I install...a water fountain?...

I know of many transformers that have sprinklers spraying on them because they are heavily loaded. The transformer may not be listed to be treated this way but I sure see a lot of it.

 

[mdshunk]

The manufacturer of the equipment in question CLEARLY indicates that the device should not be mounted inside of a CB or fuse panel but that it should have its own enclosure.

No they didn't. It's no place in their instructions or in the instructions for the panelboard cabinet. If it ain't written down, it's not something you can enforce by any means.

 

[weressl]

No they didn't. It's no place in their instructions or in the instructions for the panelboard cabinet. If it ain't written down, it's not something you can enforce by any means.

Well, go back and see the OP's PDF which has a diagram indicating the location to be a SEPARATE box for the device.

 

[mdshunk]

I don't think it is bunk, see my other post.

Your argument in trying to justify is bass awkward. Just because something is done "all the time" does not make it right.

I'm telling you that this stuff even comes with instructions stating to mount it inside the panel.

I challenge you this:
Find any specific instruction in the panelboard cabinet literature, the phase coupler literature, or the NEC that prohibits the mounting of the phase coupler in the panelboard cabinet. You will find none. Find anything in any of that literature that states that a panelboard is the only thing permitted to be mounted in a panelboard cabinet. You will find nothing of the sort. You're just another grumpy old guy trying to remain relevant.

 

[iwire]

Well, go back and see the original PDF which has a diagram indicating the location to be a SEPARATE box for the device.

Don't come in at this point and think you'll save the day. :grin:

The unit is not listed equipment, the diagram is nothing more then a suggestion.

 

[mdshunk]

Well, go back and see the OP's PDF which has a diagram indicating the location to be a SEPARATE box for the device.

That diagram is an example. The text certainly permits it.

 

[iwire]

What about 110.3(B)?

What about it?

What instruction that is part of the listing or labeling being violated?