Misuse of Equipment

[iwire]

..So you are saying Joe and MY self are the only ones who agree it is not legal..

And backinthehabit apparently

it clearly violates space requirements (it is more than 40% of the area)..

Really?

What is it that is taking up space?

Is it a conductor, a splice, a tap?

The 40% part of 312.8 applies only to conductors "The conductors shall not...."

 

[BackInTheHabit]

NEC 2008 312.8 Also states, if you read further:

"...., and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75% of the cross-sectional area of that space."

Take into consideration the combination of the entire device.

NEC 2008 312.11 Spacing

NEC 2008 312.11(A)
"The spacing within cabinets and cutout boxes shall be sufficient to provide ample room for the distribution of wire and cables placed in them and for seperation of metal parts of devices and apparatus mounted in them in accordance with (A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3)."


I don't see how the item in the photo in the OP can meet NEC 312.8 and/or NEC 312.11 If a device doesn't fit into the areas of NEC 312.11(A) - (D), I believe the installed device is in violation of the NEC.

I know this will step on some toes. Let the dancing begin.

 

[iwire]

I know this will step on some toes. Let the dancing begin.

If we go with your argument, we could also not place anything in cabinets that not mentioned in 312.8. There are items like surge suppressors, power metering equipment, etc. that have to placed in the cabinets.

Remember, the NEC rules apply to everything from small dwelling unit panels to large industrial / commercial panels. In these large panels many items can be found in them that are not breakers.

 

[frizbeedog]

Is this product properly installed, and is it even listed?

No, and....No

But Bob says it's not a violation. Not by NEC

But I still feel ill....and bloated with knowlege. :grin:

View attachment 1483

 

[iaov]

Not an inspector. Not kidding.:grin:

That is something I myself would not do. I feel the proper installation is in a J-box outside of the panelboard.

The photo in the original post is just bad workmanship. (IMHO)

I agree with you and Marc. I don't believe it is a code violation but it certainly looks like s*** and I would not do it this way either. The manufactures do not show it installed inside the panel and in this case I think picture is worth a thousand words.:smile:

 

[jwelectric]

Look in the bottom of the panel enclosure found on this page

I can't help but wonder if Eaton Corp. is in the know about such tinngs.



Edited to add;

How can this be legal?

 

[frizbeedog]

Look in the bottom of the panel enclosure found on this page

I can't help but wonder if Eaton Corp. is in the know about such tinngs.

Someone does, but if you're Square D it's not your problem...?

a statement found at the end of this

Electrical equipment should be installed, operated, serviced, and
maintained only by qualified personnel. No responsibility is assumed
by Schneider Electric for any consequences arising out of the use of
this material.? 2005 Schneider Electric USA All Rights Reserved
Schneider Electric USA
1601 Mercer Road
Lexington, KY 40511 USA
1-888-SquareD (1-888-778-2733)
www.us.SquareD.com

 

[frizbeedog]

Edited to add;

How can this be legal?

......uh, you lost me. :-?

I'll take a crack at it.

Install it per NEC (and AHJ) and listing and labeling on the equipment?

I'm thinking those little white tags on the door.....mabey. yes.

oh yea, throw some neat and workmanlike into the mix.

 

[cschmid]

You know I thought about that statement of it meeting UL requirements and do agree that "meeting" and "being listed" do have two different meanings..So I do stand corrected but still have to go with the space requirements..Yet at the same time I am glad I am not the inspector because this is a grey area..So Joe I vote it is violation of space requirements like stated in 312..Sorry not in to the computer thing today we have gotten 22 inches of snow been busy and sick..

 

[BackInTheHabit]

If we go with your argument, we could also not place anything in cabinets that not mentioned in 312.8. There are items like surge suppressors, power metering equipment, etc. that have to placed in the cabinets.

Remember, the NEC rules apply to everything from small dwelling unit panels to large industrial / commercial panels. In these large panels many items can be found in them that are not breakers.

I could see your point regarding devices and equipment. But the cabinets those items are placed in are usually dedicated to control devices such as contactors, controls etc. Those cabinets do not have panelboards installed in them. It is the photo shown in the OP that has a panelboard installed and that is what I based my last post on.

So I am still unswayed in my stance and still believe it to be a violation of the NEC 312.8 and 312.11

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Someone does, but if you're Square D it's not your problem...?


Schneider Electric USA
1601 Mercer Road
Lexington, KY 40511 USA
1-888-SquareD (1-888-778-2733)
www.us.SquareD.com

I am familiar with the location of the Square D plant here in Lexington. I know that they make the QO and Homeline brands at this facility. I'll see what I can find out locally.

 

[iwire]

Those cabinets do not have panelboards
installed in them.

Yes, they do, they are cabinets with both overcurrent deivces and
other equipment in them.

Keep in mind 312.8 is about ANY enclosure that contains
overcurrent devices it is not specifically about 'loadcenters' and
it is not about panelboards.

Here is a enclosure I put together.

It is a enclosure as covered in 312.8

It contains overcurrent devices
(about 14 of them) in it as covered in 312.8

It also contains a lot of other things, heck I
even installed a florescent light inside the cabinet at the top.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1470&d=1207389226


Back to the original picture.
I have not read all of the pages - so bear with me if I am repeating other's responses.

The picture may be, again I say it may be a little misleading, but this is probably a very good example for the discussion here.



Getting away from emotion and dealing with straight forward code issues:

The main issue (other than this is a very sloppy install - which is not really legally enforceable), is the space taken up in the area of the enclosure permitted by 312.8.

The 75% permitted is a "measurable" value. I can tell you that if one were to take an actual measurement, you may be surprised how often the numbers work out in favor of what would seem to be a violation of 312.8.

This one looks horrible, but may in fact be compliant. I have not even tried to figure it.
As an inspector, my decision is to say yea or nea without emotion and move on to the next job. I do not like the install, but if it were to meet all of the parameters, so be it. I can tell you that the contractor in this instance may be asked to provide the listing of the equipment and a calculation. If anything, it helps all to become more aware of the NEC as opposed to the "I do this all the time" without even realizing why or how they can do it. AWARENESS

 

[petersonra]

Yes, they do, they are cabinets with both overcurrent deivces and
other equipment in them.

Keep in mind 312.8 is about ANY enclosure that contains
overcurrent devices it is not specifically about 'loadcenters' and
it is not about panelboards.

Here is a enclosure I put together.

It is a enclosure as covered in 312.8

It contains overcurrent devices
(about 14 of them) in it as covered in 312.8

It also contains a lot of other things, heck I
even installed a florescent light inside the cabinet at the top.

Is the ground lug rated for two wires? We usually install the wire inside the panel to the ground lug mounting bolt with a crimp on terminal, leaving the lug for the incoming wire.

 

[iwire]

Is the ground lug rated for two wires?

It only has one conductor in it. :smile:

BTW, its not completed in that picture, still waiting to finish it.

 

[cschmid]

nice looking panel may I ask what you are building??

pierre I like that approach..

 

[iwire]

nice looking panel may I ask what you are building??

Thanks. It is a 50 HP grinder, but it is getting a hydraulically powered automated accessory that will hold the part to be ground and cycle it against the grinding belt a preset number of times.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

I'll take all points mentioned here and consider on them some more. It seems that 312.8 should fill an entire page with all the interpretations we have here.

Just curious: If the panel had all GFCI or AFCI breakers, as per photo, would that make a difference to anyone wether or not it is NEC compliant?

 

[frizbeedog]

Just curious: If the panel had all GFCI or AFCI breakers, as per photo, would that make a difference to anyone wehter or not it is NEC compliant?

I had someting to say but then I reread your post. So none of this makes sense.

except this....

It can't leagally be cited as a violation, but none of us would do an install like that.....Right?

....or so thats what I gathered from this mental turmoil (excercise).....(thread).

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Edit all, I misread your point.

What point of mine did you misread?