Motors on GFI protection

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powerplay

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.I am hooking up Boiler controls and motors for some Beer making equipment. I hope that no nuisance tripping occurs, but wonder if 120volt motors drawing 6 amps on GFI protection have any issues with GFI protection? Hoping Low Pressure Steam is condecnsating and not going to be an issue either...
 
powerplay said:
.I am hooking up Boiler controls and motors for some Beer making equipment. I hope that no nuisance tripping occurs, but wonder if 120volt motors drawing 6 amps on GFI protection have any issues with GFI protection? Hoping Low Pressure Steam is condecnsating and not going to be an issue either...
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They have pool pumps running on gfci all the time. There really should not be an issue unless the motor has a problem with leakage.
 
powerplay said:
.I am hooking up Boiler controls and motors for some Beer making equipment. I hope that no nuisance tripping occurs, but wonder if 120volt motors drawing 6 amps on GFI protection have any issues with GFI protection? Hoping Low Pressure Steam is condecnsating and not going to be an issue either...
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There are special GF protection available with adjustable range to specifically tailor for motor applications.

Here are some:
http://www.bender.org/products/protective-relays.aspx
 
Swimming pool pumps, hot tubs, bathroom blowers, kitchen appliances, all are used on GFCI circuits. If there were issues with motors on GFCIs, it would be impossible to use them.
 
powerplay said:
.I am hooking up Boiler controls and motors for some Beer making equipment. I hope that no nuisance tripping occurs, but wonder if 120volt motors drawing 6 amps on GFI protection have any issues with GFI protection? Hoping Low Pressure Steam is condecnsating and not going to be an issue either...
Click to expand...

If you do experience a GFCI trip what are the consequences? Will there be equipment damage that can occur? Or would there be a simple nuisance? In other words how crytical is the process?
 
templdl said:
If you do experience a GFCI trip what are the consequences? Will there be equipment damage that can occur? Or would there be a simple nuisance? In other words how crytical is the process?
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Motor tripping GFI means angry beer league drinkers come after me with baseball bats!

Just kidding.. uncertain consequences, but see water being a possible safety issue so installed it with a note of caution when cleaning. The boiler needs power to maintain gas valves to be open and functioning, pump needs power to get condensed steam back to boiler, water solenoid needs power to fill condensate tank, pumps to transfer beer would stop...thank goodness people need electricity to do their job!
 
powerplay said:
Motor tripping GFI means angry beer league drinkers come after me with baseball bats!
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What, No beer.........AARGH!!!!


madashell.jpg
 
powerplay said:
Motor tripping GFI means angry beer league drinkers come after me with baseball bats!

Just kidding.. uncertain consequences, but see water being a possible safety issue so installed it with a note of caution when cleaning. The boiler needs power to maintain gas valves to be open and functioning, pump needs power to get condensed steam back to boiler, water solenoid needs power to fill condensate tank, pumps to transfer beer would stop...thank goodness people need electricity to do their job!
Click to expand...

It depend how extensive is the wiring, how much - periodic - condensation the wiring may experience, etc. wehn the GFCI is attempting to protect more than a single equipment on a circuit.
Ex. an enclosed chemical process bulding, that produced aqueous dye products with lot of steam and just general washdown had a GFCI on the first floor paneloard protecting 3 outlets. The run was about 250' - single XHHW's in GRC - in total and it would randomly trip off. So we removed the breaker, installed a GF recepracle as the first device and the trips almost competely seized to occur.
 
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weressl said:
It depend how extensive is the wiring, how much - periodic - condensation the wiring may experience, etc. wehn the GFCI is attempting to protect more than a single equipment on a circuit.
Ex. an enclosed chemical process bulding, that produced aqueous dye products with lot of steam and just general washdown had a GFCI on the first floor paneloard protecting 3 outlets. The run was about 250' - single XHHW's in GRC - in total and it would randomly trip off. So we removed the breaker, installed a GF recepracle as the first device and the trips almost competely seized to occur.
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What is GRC? I used Rigid PCV and pVC boxes to seal the connections, and over the deadfront GFI for Boiler Pump and 15amp gfci Receptacle i used an clear "In use cover" hopefully far enough away from steam.
 
powerplay said:
Motor tripping GFI means angry beer league drinkers come after me with baseball bats!

Just kidding.. uncertain consequences, but see water being a possible safety issue so installed it with a note of caution when cleaning. The boiler needs power to maintain gas valves to be open and functioning, pump needs power to get condensed steam back to boiler, water solenoid needs power to fill condensate tank, pumps to transfer beer would stop...thank goodness people need electricity to do their job!
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Now that you have considered the unwelcome GFI trip you can weigh the option that you have against the risk of damaging the product with an untimely loss of power.
 
jumper said:
Help me out here.

Are you advocating not having GFCI protection for the circuit?

If so, why?
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I don't know about templdl, but without more information I am.

It has been mentioned that GFCI's have been protecting swimming pool pumps for years, and I agree. GFCI's are required on swimming pool equipment because people are immersed in the pool.

Now it may be a dream of a lot of people to swim in a vat full of beer, but I'm sure the brewery does not encourage this practice. If there is a ground fault in the equipment, it is probably mostly stainless steel and well grounded - it is going to trip the overcurrent device. Nobody is expected to be swimming inside that may be exposed to additional shock hazards like they would in a swimming pool.

If this equipment is cord and plug connected - I may have a little different view.
 
kwired said:
I don't know about templdl, but without more information I am.

It has been mentioned that GFCI's have been protecting swimming pool pumps for years, and I agree. GFCI's are required on swimming pool equipment because people are immersed in the pool.

Now it may be a dream of a lot of people to swim in a vat full of beer, but I'm sure the brewery does not encourage this practice. If there is a ground fault in the equipment, it is probably mostly stainless steel and well grounded - it is going to trip the overcurrent device. Nobody is expected to be swimming inside that may be exposed to additional shock hazards like they would in a swimming pool.

If this equipment is cord and plug connected - I may have a little different view.
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Ditto. It is very common not to want a unwelcome GFI trip that would interfere with a manufacturing process and often time a GFI alarm would be used to indicate is a GF has been detected so that the process can be shut down in an orderly fashion. However this wouldn't be of much help if a human life is a risk. Is human life the critical issue? If so then there will be trade offs. I agree with kwired that a swimming pool is a different consideration than brewing beer.
What class of GF protection is required in this process, class1 or 'A', or class 2(ELCI-earth leakage current interrupter)?
 
templdl said:
Ditto. It is very common not to want a unwelcome GFI trip that would interfere with a manufacturing process and often time a GFI alarm would be used to indicate is a GF has been detected so that the process can be shut down in an orderly fashion. However this wouldn't be of much help if a human life is a risk. Is human life the critical issue? If so then there will be trade offs. I agree with kwired that a swimming pool is a different consideration than brewing beer.
What class of GF protection is required in this process, class1 or 'A', or class 2(ELCI-earth leakage current interrupter)?
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I have done work in dairy foods processing plants, and GFCI is not used on anything except for 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles intended for general purpose use like portable equipment or tools. Likely similar tanks as OP mentioned in the brewery are in use in dairy processing also.

Pumps, agitators, electro-mechanical valves, sensors, other controls, etc. are all generally hard wired in some way, and there is little risk of losing an equipment grounding conductor. If they were all cord and plug connected, then you have a situation no different than you do for electric construction tools, and extension cords - missing or defective grounding pins on the cord caps, which is what I feel has to be #1 reason why GFCI is required for all temp power outlets for construction purposes, more so than any presence of water.

Faulting equipment with no equipment grounding conductor is not a safe thing - especially if there is a lot of grounded surfaces around. A metal tank that is pretty solidly connected to an equipment grounding conductor that has a fault within equipment mounted on it is going to have low impedance path to make the overcurrent protection work very quickly.
 
powerplay said:
What is GRC? I used Rigid PCV and pVC boxes to seal the connections, and over the deadfront GFI for Boiler Pump and 15amp gfci Receptacle i used an clear "In use cover" hopefully far enough away from steam.
Click to expand...

Side comment.

Sealing is a myth, be it a conduit system a device or an enclosure. As electrical equipment heats up and cools down beteen operational cycles they 'draw in' atmospheric moisute - unless you're in Arizona - that condenses. The 'better' you seal your equipment, the harder is for the condensate to escape, drain.
 
powerplay said:
.I am hooking up Boiler controls and motors for some Beer making equipment. I hope that no nuisance tripping occurs, but wonder if 120volt motors drawing 6 amps on GFI protection have any issues with GFI protection? Hoping Low Pressure Steam is condecnsating and not going to be an issue either...
Click to expand...

kwired said:
I have done work in dairy foods processing plants, and GFCI is not used on anything except for 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles intended for general purpose use like portable equipment or tools. Likely similar tanks as OP mentioned in the brewery are in use in dairy processing also.
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One important question would be the location of this beer brewing equipment to see if GFCI protection is required.

If the equipment is located in a brewery then probably not but if it's in someone's basement or a commercial kitchen (micro brewery) then they may not have that much choice if it came with the cord attached and the manufacturer didn't intend for it to be hard wired.

I think we would need to know more before deciding to either protect or not.
 
growler said:
One important question would be the location of this beer brewing equipment to see if GFCI protection is required.

If the equipment is located in a brewery then probably not but if it's in someone's basement or a commercial kitchen (micro brewery) then they may not have that much choice if it came with the cord attached and the manufacturer didn't intend for it to be hard wired.

I think we would need to know more before deciding to either protect or not.
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To my point.
 
growler said:
One important question would be the location of this beer brewing equipment to see if GFCI protection is required.

If the equipment is located in a brewery then probably not but if it's in someone's basement or a commercial kitchen (micro brewery) then they may not have that much choice if it came with the cord attached and the manufacturer didn't intend for it to be hard wired.

I think we would need to know more before deciding to either protect or not.
Click to expand...

I was hoping for such feedback... It is a small Micro Brewery that is mostly hard wired motors, but I see proper bonding should deal with shorts. Customers can walk into the area and are brought it to see what is happening. I was told GFI should only be an issue if there's a problem, but also don't want to see nuisance tripping. I will check further into the necessity, but believe that for the most part the water tight connections is all that is necessary for the hardwired equipment safety. To do, or not to do...that is the question! :p
 
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