Mounting NEMA 3R Jbox Violation?

[Smart Solar]

I received this response from Bell/Hubbell:
Unfortunately, the weatherproof boxes are not tested at UL for internal drilling and mounting, and therefore, it is not included as an acceptable installation method in our installation instructions. Because of this, I am unable to provide any documentation stating it is acceptable, and have to defer back to the AHJ, and the local inspector for determination. Although it is a common installation method, that has been acceptable by most for many years, occasionally you will run across an inspector that will question the method.
The way to appease this inspector is to use the recommended installation method that uses the included mounting lugs. The 8 ways to mount, is marketing speak regarding the location, and the position of the mounting lugs, and their direction.

Let me know if you have additional questions.

 

[infinity]

I received this response from Bell/Hubbell:
Unfortunately, the weatherproof boxes are not tested at UL for internal drilling and mounting, and therefore, it is not included as an acceptable installation method in our installation instructions. Because of this, I am unable to provide any documentation stating it is acceptable, and have to defer back to the AHJ, and the local inspector for determination. Although it is a common installation method, that has been acceptable by most for many years, occasionally you will run across an inspector that will question the method.
The way to appease this inspector is to use the recommended installation method that uses the included mounting lugs. The 8 ways to mount, is marketing speak regarding the location, and the position of the mounting lugs, and their direction.

Let me know if you have additional questions.

So there you go. Dumb but it is what it is.

 

[Smart Solar]

So there you go. Dumb but it is what it is.

Yep. If I had a nickel for every "it-is-what-it is".. I would have a bunch of nickels. thanks everyone for all that you do. Wishing you all "Blessings"

 

[wwhitney]

FWIW, the last sentence of (2017) NEC 314.23(B)(1) says that "Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Smart Solar]

What? Yahoo !!! I almost through in the towel ! You are the man !

314.23(B)(1) Nails and Screws. Nails and screws, where used as a fastening means, shall secure boxes by using brackets on the outside of the enclosure, or by using mounting holes in the back or in a single side of the enclosure, or they shall pass through the interior within 6 mm (1∕4 in.) of the back or ends of the enclosure. Screws shall not be permitted to pass through the box unless exposed threads in the box are protected using approved means to avoid abrasion of conductor insulation. Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved.

In other words (screws, where used as a fastening means, shall secure boxes by using mounting holes in a single side of the enclosure. Mounting holes made in the field shall be approved.

 

[wwhitney]

It does seem like a slam dunk. Hopefully the AHJ in question agrees. : - )

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

It says that the holes shall be approved. Who is approving them?
I can't understand why an inspector would even bother to consider what holes were used to mount a metal box in the first place.

 

[Smart Solar]

It says that the holes shall be approved. Who is approving them?
I can't understand why an inspector would even bother to consider what holes were used to mount a metal box in the first place.

I reached out to Hubbell genius to ask him if he agrees that the NEC 14.23(B)(1) Nails and Screws is applicable. Also, for his two cents on drilling weep holes in the bottom in violation of his UL. Stuff like this used to drive me nuts, now I am just saving my energy to keep breathing day in and day out.

 

[synchro]

It says that the holes shall be approved. Who is approving them?
I can't understand why an inspector would even bother to consider what holes were used to mount a metal box in the first place.

This was a committee statement for a second revision of 314.23(B)(1) for the 2017 NEC:

“This revision corrects the previous text that literally required only the nails and screws to be attached instead of the box, and assures that mounting holes are indeed permitted in the back or sides of a box, correcting previous oversights. The new wording also assures that if such holes are made in the field they are subject to the evaluation of the AHJ as to suitability. This is of particular importance in the case of nonmetallic boxes, where such holes are generally discouraged by manufacturers. Mounting holes drilled in steel boxes are less critical but should still be reviewable and the text in this revision provides for both.”

But I disavow any further knowledge of their actions... to paraphrase Mission Impossible.

 

[wwhitney]

Well that text makes it sound like "shall be approved" means "shall be subject to approval," or "shall only be permitted with approval." While I was reading it as meaning "shall be permitted." I.e. the AHJ must approve, the approval is not discretionary.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jaggedben]

All of the Nema 1 and 3R cans and gutters I purchase don't have any factory KO's. Also none of the panelboard boxes I purchase have KO's. None of them have instructions for punching KO's. I guess this equipment is useless?

But the 3R boxes and gutters have specific spots for mounting screws, don't they?

 

[jaggedben]

In the NEC 'approved' means that it's acceptable to the AHJ (Article 100 definition.) It does not mean the same as 'shall be permitted', in fact it nearly means the opposite, since only the AHJ can tell you what they approve. In this case the AHJ didn't approve.

 

[wwhitney]

In the NEC 'approved' means that it's acceptable to the AHJ (Article 100 definition.) It does not mean the same as 'shall be permitted', in fact it nearly means the opposite, since only the AHJ can tell you what they approve. In this case the AHJ didn't approve.

Eh, I still think the bare sentence "shall be approved" is ambiguous. The 3 word phrase "shall be approved" occurs 15 times in the 2017 NEC. Most of the time it occurs as "shall be approved by the AHJ" or "shall be approved for (something)". The only other time the sentence terminates after "shall be approved" is in 530.31, "Wiring for portable dressing rooms shall be approved."

In the case at point, since "mounting holes made in the field" are clearly a field modification, the sentence really reads like a directive to the AHJ: you shall approve of this. But I agree that is not the intention, and the intention was "shall be subject to approval."

Oh well.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jmellc]

Thank you for the quick thoughts so far. Seems like we have differences of opinion. The boxes that we install (Bell) from Hubbell have instructions that indicate: (install lugs on box, Mount box to surface,,,etc.) We don't use the little lugs and we just drill through the side with self-tappers with combined EPDM washer. Seems like since we are not using the tabs that the inspector has got us, and we will have to reinstall the boxes using tabs in this one city out of 70.

Since the same city requires us to drill the weep holes in the bottom (which obviously would not be a step in the installation instructions from Hubbell) , this seems like a contradiction.

I have emails into Hubbell asking them for the "eight mounting methods" which I can't find anywhere either.

I'll keep you posted on new developments, and if anyone else can provide some useful content we would appreciate it.
Once I am cleared to post images I'll post them.

All the best to you all in all your endeavors,
"Saving the world by installing extra tabs... one jbox at a time....."

Most bell boxes have little dimples on the back that can easily be knocked out for internal mounting. I’m pretty sure the instructions used to mention this. I think you should go to the chief inspector and complain. Throwing the inspector off the roof may be more satisfying but might get you into trouble.

 

[Smart Solar]

Here is the Hubbell answer when I asked them about 314.23(B)(1) Nails and Screws.

"In my opinion, yes, that would allow for a great argument with the inspector. This section is typically referenced when discussing NEMA 1 boxes in dry locations, and is still subject to interpretation by the inspector. I think if you posed this to the inspector, he may see that you have overcome the weatherproof concern with the rubber headed washer, as well as spread the fastening force over a greater area with the larger washer, and therefore improving the structural integrity of the back wall of the box."

 

[curt swartz]

But the 3R boxes and gutters have specific spots for mounting screws, don't they?

Most do but what good does mounting the box do when you are not allowed to punch holes for raceways or cables?

 

[Smart Solar]

Eh, I still think the bare sentence "shall be approved" is ambiguous. The 3 word phrase "shall be approved" occurs 15 times in the 2017 NEC. Most of the time it occurs as "shall be approved by the AHJ" or "shall be approved for (something)". The only other time the sentence terminates after "shall be approved" is in 530.31, "Wiring for portable dressing rooms shall be approved."

In the case at point, since "mounting holes made in the field" are clearly a field modification, the sentence really reads like a directive to the AHJ: you shall approve of this. But I agree that is not the intention, and the intention was "shall be subject to approval."

Oh well.

Cheers, Wayne

Unfortunately we have not found many inspectors that will ever take the responsibility on their own shoulders to approve what was done in the field. When there is a failure in the field the OEM states "not their fault it wasn't installed per instructions, if the inspector approved the holes then all of a sudden it is a liability to the city. So inspector always says "no", no matter how logical it is. This has always been a no-win situation for the contractor and the client since it delays their installation.

 

[jaggedben]

Most do but what good does mounting the box do when you are not allowed to punch holes for raceways or cables?

The OP was about the AHJ objecting to holes for mounting screws, not KOs for raceways or cables. KOs for raceways and cables can be sealed when necessary using proper fittings, the code addresses this. It's not so clear with respect to mouting holes.

 

[retirede]

Unfortunately we have not found many inspectors that will ever take the responsibility on their own shoulders to approve what was done in the field. When there is a failure in the field the OEM states "not their fault it wasn't installed per instructions, if the inspector approved the holes then all of a sudden it is a liability to the city. So inspector always says "no", no matter how logical it is. This has always been a no-win situation for the contractor and the client since it delays their installation.

I was always been under the impression that inspectors or the AHJ assume no liability except in very egregious circumstances (such as approving something without even showing up).

 

[Smart Solar]

I was always been under the impression that inspectors or the AHJ assume no liability except in very egregious circumstances (such as approving something without even showing

Unfortunately we have not found many inspectors that will ever take the responsibility on their own shoulders to approve what was done in the field. When there is a failure in the field the OEM states "not their fault it wasn't installed per instructions, if the inspector approved the holes then all of a sudden it is a liability to the city. So inspector always says "no", no matter how logical it is. This has always been a no-win situation for the contractor and the client since it delays their installation.

I am just speculating however, on why this particular city out of 70+ cities is having a concern over the mounting method. If the latest code says it is ok with AHJ approval and the other 70+ cities give the thumbs up, then my guess is they are afraid of liability.