Mud rings instead of MP1s

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One more vote for a non-violation.

As far as the UL listing goes, I agree with infinity. A UL listing isn't required (and neither is the mud ring), so you don't have to comply with any of the listing requirements.

Steve
 
iwire said:
Really?

Can you show us instructions included with the listing or labeling of a 'mudring' that requires that they be used with a box? :)

BTW, Chapter 1 (110.3) does not apply to Chapter 8 unless it is mentioned in Chapter 8. :cool:
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This was where we were originally going with it, however, 800.18 Installation of Equipment referenes 110.3B
 
curt swartz said:
Are you sure these were not fire rated walls?
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I do not have a full set of plans, however, we have free air drops, with no pipe, and the fire alarm guys are doing free air drops as well, no pipe on any LV anywhere. They are using boxes, however I beleive that they are required because they are housing horns/strobes/pulls etc.
 
Mudrings have been used for telco apps for years and before I could crawl and that was more than 40 years ago. Tell that inspector to show you the code or show you the money. If its in a fire wall don't bother cause you be on the wrong here.
Now I 've heard is all failing an inspection for a mud ring without a box because it's not listed that way.

Hey I used to cut the back off a NM box now you can buy them that way.I'd like to hear what he said about this.

By the way those products from Erico are a bit easier to use and they have less bulge in the wall by the way.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Mudrings have been used for telco apps for years and before I could crawl and that was more than 40 years ago. Tell that inspector to show you the code or show you the money. If its in a fire wall don't bother cause you be on the wrong here.
Now I 've heard is all failing an inspection for a mud ring without a box because it's not listed that way.

Hey I used to cut the back off a NM box now you can buy them that way.I'd like to hear what he said about this.

By the way those products from Erico are a bit easier to use and they have less bulge in the wall by the way.
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I know, and they are cheaper too! by about 1/3. But that is an inferior product because the sheet rockers bury them and they get the snot knocked out of them. I'd like to see the sheet rockers try to bury my 5/8"'s mud ring! Also, I even used the super flat screws to mount them so they did not bulge.

I know I am beating a dead horse because of article 100.3B, however, I spoke to RACO, and they are willing to write a letter stating that I did not ruin the UL listing by using it ni this application. Ultimately, I think he will make me change it. But how many of you go back later because those LV mounting brackets are loose or flimsy...? NEVER had a problem with a mud ring EVER. Simply put its not right and the code is written for "minimum standards" if I exceed them why should I be punished.
 
corbel said:
I know, and they are cheaper too! by about 1/3. But that is an inferior product because the sheet rockers bury them and they get the snot knocked out of them. I'd like to see the sheet rockers try to bury my 5/8"'s mud ring! Also, I even used the super flat screws to mount them so they did not bulge.

I know I am beating a dead horse because of article 100.3B, however, I spoke to RACO, and they are willing to write a letter stating that I did not ruin the UL listing by using it ni this application. Ultimately, I think he will make me change it. But how many of you go back later because those LV mounting brackets are loose or flimsy...? NEVER had a problem with a mud ring EVER. Simply put its not right and the code is written for "minimum standards" if I exceed them why should I be punished.
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So this guy is actually going to fail or already has because of the mudrings.
What a crock. If you had seen the stuff that pasess here you would be amazed.
 
4SPARKS said:
I recently installed as I have many times before mud rings mounted to studs(metal) for data and phone terminations. Well an inspector came in and failed this installation the reason given was that the product was not UL listed for this application. Through various conversations with inspectors, manufacturers, UL reps, it seems the mud ring UL literature does not mention this application specifically but in using both products a mud ring is much sturdier and on a big job as this is less prone to damage and will support my device plate better. So my question is where in the code does it require or state what kind of box needs to be used for this application and does the code require it to be UL listed for that application I would really like to fight this more on principal than anything.
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This "inspector" is a moron and it's people like him that are such a problem in the trade.
 
Well an inspector came in and failed this installation the reason given was that the product was not UL listed for this application.
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Idiots like this make my blood pressure skyrocket.


Visit the city hall/ building inspection department and point out all the dangerous phone/data violations there. Tel them you want to to put in a bid to rectify all the hazzardous phone and data jacks.

This "inspector" is a moron and it's people like him that are such a problem in the trade
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Not just the trade, but the country. Wasting resources is NEVER a good idea.
.
 
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curt swartz said:
Are you sure these were not fire rated walls?
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That would be the ONLY reason I could think of - and still be a UL listing violation.... For the sheet rock assembly...


electricmanscott said:
This "inspector" is a moron and it's people like him that are such a problem in the trade.
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Wouldn't go that far.... But I HAVE.... :D


As far as the ring by itself - I would ask the possibly over-zealous inspector, that over heard you talking about his momma - this....

"What is the difference in using a ring by itself, as opposed to use of a product like this?"

PH3511_w.jpg


Plaster rings can be mounted separately eliminating the need for an electrical box for low-voltage applications
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A:
Offset design of MEB1 and use of CADDY Part # SMS8 low profile self-tapping screws (not included) eliminates drywall bulge
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Otherwise it is no different....
REF:http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcBx2StdHngr.asp

However, it sounds as if the building is a life-safety building and it's more than likely a fire-proofing issue with the sheet-rock wall assembly. And those are listed assemblies by UL and other companies with rules for penetrations of them - often requiring fire-stop products.
 
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Oh - and at most - if it is a fire-stopping issue - you should only need to correct the rated walls - not the partition walls that are not rated.
 
Update-pass!

Update-pass!

Just to give everyone an update. After numerous conversations with mulitple different local inspectors and tradesmen, I decided to stand firm and see how far I could take it without getting myself too jammed up. I was able to ask if the manufacturer would write a letter stating it use in my application is ok, would he accept it. He agreed, and the manufacturer was more than helpful in assisting me in my journey. Within about 3 hours we passed without needing to replace all the mud rings.

Thank you all for all your comments, and lets hope we all learned something...still not sure what exactly, but there's gotta be a lesson in there somewhere.
 
sparkyboys said:
Maybe not in homes or some small retail businesses, but as for schools hospitals, doctor offices, data centers, warehouses/office buildings. These are the types of jobs that I do. I have seen it on all spec codes. Yes spec codes are diff than most NEC codes, but if its in the specs, then DO NOT whip that code book in front of the inspector. Cause if he asks for those specs and its different than the NEC, NEC does not override the specs.
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Can an inspector enforce specs? Or is he just there for NEC requirements?
 
Flex said:
Can an inspector enforce specs? Or is he just there for NEC requirements?
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If the specs or plans are stamped by an engineer, I think the inspector can either enforce them, or require a set of revised, stamped specs.

But I think that's usually reserved for larger issues. Most inspectors don't want to spend their time reading project spec books and comparing it to the actual work. IMO, it would be crazy to enforce a spec on a issue like mud rings, unless there was some real issue, like maybe a fire rated wall. But then, if it were an issue like that, the inspector would have a code to cite anyway.
 
I would think he could only enforce the NEC the engineer or whoever does the punch list would be the one who I think could enforce spec.
 
corbel said:
Thank you all for all your comments, and lets hope we all learned something...still not sure what exactly, but there's gotta be a lesson in there somewhere.
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Hmmm... Lesson - 'don't bend...' :roll:

steve66 said:
If the specs or plans are stamped by an engineer, I think the inspector can either enforce them, or require a set of revised, stamped specs.
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OT - Do you work in Virginia? :D You sound like a recent thread...
 
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