My wife got shocked!

[LAYMAN JOE]

My wife was putting laundry from the washer to the dryer and got shocked touching the two at the same time! I have an ungrounded branch circuit system. I dont understand?????
Whats going on here???!!! how can there be a difference in potential between the two?!!!

I also got nailed plugging in one of those air purifiers. I went to turn it on while leaning on the dryer and got nailed. Im loosing my mind. ...and need some help.

 

[LAYMAN JOE]

I have 46 volts between the washer and dryer frame!!! I dont understand whats going on.
The washer is plugged into a gfci (no gec). The dryer is on a 3 wire receptacle. both circuits go back to the sub panel. there is no GEC from the main panel to the sub.

I unplugged the washer and found no difference in potential from washer to dryer. I plugged the washer in and expected to find the 46 volts again, but only found 1 volt difference. I need help guys! I have never dealt with this type problem before and I am extremely worried for my family.

The main panel is grounded at a ground rod only!!! not bonded to the cold water pipe!!! I bought a real cherry of a house.

I need recommendations on how best to protect my family.

 

[George Stolz]

Call an electrician immediately. I am closing this thread in accordance with the Forum Rules.

This site is designed for:

• Contractors
• Electricians
• Engineers
• Inspectors
• Instructors
• Other electrically related individuals

* This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries. Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

 

[George Stolz]

Joe, my sincerest apologies. I saw "LAYMAN" in big letters, and "protecting my family..." and took it from there. I've reopened both your threads.

You have an open neutral, I am 95% sure. Either at the service, at the transformer, there is an open neutral. Do unplug the valuables until you find it. With such a wide path of damage, it's most likely at the service or before.

 

[czechmate]

What about the frame not being bonded .

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

You may also have an inadvertant connection of one of the phase conductors to the frame of the dryer.
I would check to make sure that you have some type of "effective ground fault current path" for both the washer and the dryer circuit.
You are an electrician, if you need to, install new wiring for the affected circuits.

 

[ceknight]

I need recommendations on how best to protect my family.

Unplug the dryer.

 

[George Stolz]

I just got off the phone with Joe, apologized, and discussed his problem. This is definutely not run-of-the-mill, and the open neutral idea has been examined and exhausted. There is something else wrong.

I'm sure Joe will fill in with more details as this goes on, and hopefully he gets this figured out.

The thing that fries my brain is that the 46V comes from the washing machine when tested against a known good outlet with a DMM.

 

[LAYMAN JOE]

You are an electrician, if you need to, install new wiring for the affected circuits.

The shoe makers kids go barefoot. :grin:
you are correct. this is the best course of action.

 

[czechmate]

46 volts today Hospital stay next day.

 

[LAYMAN JOE]

George,

No need to apologize. Dont worry about it and I appreciate you calling.

 

[George Stolz]

Thanks, glad to talk.

So, if you can line up all the data you have, let's see if somebody can figure this out. Take your time, include everything you can think of.

 

[LAYMAN JOE]

Im out of energy for now. Hopefully I can get a chance to post tomorrow.

 

[S'mise]

Get grounded

Get grounded

My guess is one of the heating elements shorted to ground in your dryer. The frame of the washer is gronded through the water pipe. So you get little difference in voltage if you unplug the washer. The dryer is not bonded and your egc is missing so it does not have an effective ground fault current path back to trip the breaker. The 46 volts is live on the frame of the dryer, your wife does the 60 cycle shuffle whenever she comes in contact with the grounded washer. Some dryers have a bonding screw on the back of the frame intended to be bonded (supplemental to the egc in the cord), but if your ges does not use the water pipe, that 46 volts might not trip your breaker right away even if the dryer was properly bonded. Hope I am not confusing you. Long story short... The Dryer and the missing egc is the problem.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The frame of the washer is gronded through the water pipe.

Is not the washer connected to the metal water pipes with a rubber hose? How would it be grounded?

 

[George Stolz]

Here's some info from the conversation I had with Joe: There is a water pipe electrode, but it is not connected to the GES. Currently, if I recall correctly, there is solely a ground rod at the service.

This house was built in the 50's, none of the circuits involved have an EGC.

The washer branch circuit is visible in it's entirety, the washer is also next to the subpanel.

The subpanel was formerly the service equipment; the service was recently heavied up to 200A, leaving the old panel as a sub. The work was done prior to Joe purchasing the house, around two months ago.

The 46v disappeared briefly, and then reappeared after checking back on it around ten minutes later. The washer is new - but I didn't ask how new.

My best guess at this point is a defective washing machine, that's somehow sending the 46v to the unbonded frame of the washer.

Edit to add: Perhaps the washer is damaged due to the same events that knocked out the air purifier, PC, etc? Perhaps the two events are related - some sort of solid-state relay or a transformer inside the washing machine is half toasted, due to the power quality issues?

 

[S'mise]

Thats true Dennis, the hose is rubber coated but it may have a metal braiding inside or it may be grounded by the drain line, I dont know where but if its unpluged and he is reading 46 volts, it's prety clear that it is grounded somewhere. George, How can the washer be sending 46v unpluged?
The problem is the ground faulted Dryer, not the washer. With a meter, If you were to check the dryer frame with respect to any ground in the house I'll bet you would still get 46V.

 

[George Stolz]

John, I'd be willing to bet the washer was not unplugged during testing.

If an appliance were faulting to the chassis, wouldn't it read 120V to a neutral reference, not 46V?

In my conversation with him, Joe eliminated doubt from my mind that he was not diligent in making sure of which appliance had the problem. Anyway, enough second-hand from me.

 

[S'mise]

...I unplugged the washer and found no difference in potential from washer to dryer. I plugged the washer in and expected to find the 46 volts again, but only found 1 volt difference...

He said it was unplugged.
A ground fault can be any voltage. If a 120V heating element shorts to case in the middle you'd have 60v to ground (Two elemens are usually in series across the 240V) And other elements used for higher heat. It could be a motor winding or just about anything finding its way to ground. think of a resistor across line voltage, depending where it touches ground determines the amount of ground fault voltage.

 

[George Stolz]

I had forgot about that. On the phone, he said he tested the voltage (46v), unplugged, tested (0v), plugged back in (0v), and checked again ten minutes later (46v).

One thing to also bear in mind: the washer has no EGC, the dryer's neutral is bonded to the chassis of the dryer. (I'm not saying that to make a point one way or another, just stating it.)