NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
- Thread starter joe tedesco
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
posted by awwt
You seem to be a computer guy, I would suggest getting the code on CD-ROM
2002 NEC
Bob
[ September 04, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
posted by awwt
Wayne, I am quite surprised you would feel comfortable pointing out "violations" if you do not have a code book.
You seem to be a computer guy, I would suggest getting the code on CD-ROM
2002 NEC
334.10(3) is not a factor in this installation.
Bob
[ September 04, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
Ed
When I was teaching apprentices, if a guy showed up for a seminar without his codebook, I wouldn't even talk to him. He was "persona non grata". Word soon got around.
Ed
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
awwt
A word of advice. Don't mess with the guys on this forum unless you are absolutely sure of yourself.
Protection from physical damage can be a judgement call, and if you feel that the NM cable at this panel is in jeopardy from damage, then what about the panel itself? Being able to touch something does not make it subject to physical damage (another term/phrase not defined in the NEC).
Also, because an installation method does not appeal to you does not make it a code violation. In my classes I have 'Pipe' guys, 'NM' guys, and 'AC'cable guys. It gets to be fun discussing how they feel about each other, and I hope that I help them to understand that all three practices have their place.
One more thing ... please don't get Ed mad, we need his drawings
Pierre
awwt
A word of advice. Don't mess with the guys on this forum unless you are absolutely sure of yourself.
Protection from physical damage can be a judgement call, and if you feel that the NM cable at this panel is in jeopardy from damage, then what about the panel itself? Being able to touch something does not make it subject to physical damage (another term/phrase not defined in the NEC).
Also, because an installation method does not appeal to you does not make it a code violation. In my classes I have 'Pipe' guys, 'NM' guys, and 'AC'cable guys. It gets to be fun discussing how they feel about each other, and I hope that I help them to understand that all three practices have their place.
One more thing ... please don't get Ed mad, we need his drawings
Pierre
G
Guest
Guest
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
Point well taken. I'll have my code books soon enough. Due to my disability I am still doing most of my shopping online. Should be here any day. Lots of stuff on order. Regrouping after a workplace injury. Setting up my office right now while I get my legs back. Thank you for your comments, tips, and advice during this time of new beginnings for me.
Again, that is a beautiful job. I would just cover up the low-hanging NM. Pierre, panel boxes are protected until you take the cover off. To do that you have to make a conscious decision to remove the screws. I'm not an apprentice. I'm not in a class. I'm just here to discuss things in this forum. I am very grateful for all your constructive replies. Feel free to speak your mind. It goes both ways.
Warmly,
../Wayne
[ September 28, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
Ed,Originally posted by Ed MacLaren:
When I was teaching apprentices, if a guy showed up for a seminar without his codebook, I wouldn't even talk to him. He was "persona non grata". Word soon got around.
Ed
Point well taken. I'll have my code books soon enough. Due to my disability I am still doing most of my shopping online. Should be here any day. Lots of stuff on order. Regrouping after a workplace injury. Setting up my office right now while I get my legs back. Thank you for your comments, tips, and advice during this time of new beginnings for me.
Again, that is a beautiful job. I would just cover up the low-hanging NM. Pierre, panel boxes are protected until you take the cover off. To do that you have to make a conscious decision to remove the screws. I'm not an apprentice. I'm not in a class. I'm just here to discuss things in this forum. I am very grateful for all your constructive replies. Feel free to speak your mind. It goes both ways.
Warmly,
../Wayne
[ September 28, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
2002 NEC
What about SE coming down the side of a house to a meter and then out of the bottom of a the meter in through the sill and basement to the panel, is this a violation?
What I describe here is done every day in the New England States, are you saying all these inspectors are wrong in passing these services?
That's great if you have a code book on the way, but until it arrives you are no different from the DIYs, that you seem to have a problem with.
Obviously you are more then welcome to say "In my opinion" NM exposed is not the way I like to see a job done, but I would say you have no business saying "that is a violation" with out some code refernces to back it up.
Remember with close to 10,000 members there will be some that are just getting started in the trade and IMO you are doing them a disservice posting opinions as facts.
JMO, Bob
By the way, you do realize that few of us that post are new to this trade, you did see Ed's picture, do you think he has never taken an inspection before?
Wayne, you mentioned 334.15(B), so here is 334.15.
2002 NEC
Please take a look at this part of 334.15(B)
This makes it perfectly clear that the NEC is not "absolutely confident that Romex within reach is subject to damage", once you have come up at least 6" with one of the raceways listed you could go on with the NM on the surface.
What about SE coming down the side of a house to a meter and then out of the bottom of a the meter in through the sill and basement to the panel, is this a violation?
What I describe here is done every day in the New England States, are you saying all these inspectors are wrong in passing these services?
That's great if you have a code book on the way, but until it arrives you are no different from the DIYs, that you seem to have a problem with.
Obviously you are more then welcome to say "In my opinion" NM exposed is not the way I like to see a job done, but I would say you have no business saying "that is a violation" with out some code refernces to back it up.
Remember with close to 10,000 members there will be some that are just getting started in the trade and IMO you are doing them a disservice
posting opinions as facts.JMO, Bob
By the way, you do realize that few of us that post are new to this trade, you did see Ed's picture, do you think he has never taken an inspection before?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
Wayne
You sound very energenic, ambitious and enthusiastic about this industry, and that is a good thing. We all have our 'opinions' and when we 'stray' :roll: , this forum will let us know. When there is a term used in the NEC that is not defined per say, then there is some interpretation left open to discussion.
You have mentioned that you are not new to this industry, but let me explain one of the important things I have learned from this forum.
I have close to 30 years in construction and a college degree in constuction. In my situation I have performed all my work in a 20 mile radius, a very small piece of the pie.
In the last 4 years I have paid more attention to what is being performed outside of my comfortable little zone. Also these forums have been an eye opener! I have changed my focus to teaching in the electrical field, so now I am traveling to more locations and like Joe Tedesco, I always have a camera in hand and a eye out for 'different' kinds of the same kind of work that I am use to.
An important lesson learned is 'my way is not the only way'. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat!
The lesson to be learned... sometimes when we have a strong opinion be careful, we may be treading on someone elses foot.
Good Luck, sorry to hear about your situation. I think I can say that all here will help if you want to be helped.
Pierre
Wayne
You sound very energenic, ambitious and enthusiastic about this industry, and that is a good thing. We all have our 'opinions' and when we 'stray' :roll: , this forum will let us know. When there is a term used in the NEC that is not defined per say, then there is some interpretation left open to discussion.
You have mentioned that you are not new to this industry, but let me explain one of the important things I have learned from this forum.
I have close to 30 years in construction and a college degree in constuction. In my situation I have performed all my work in a 20 mile radius, a very small piece of the pie.
In the last 4 years I have paid more attention to what is being performed outside of my comfortable little zone. Also these forums have been an eye opener! I have changed my focus to teaching in the electrical field, so now I am traveling to more locations and like Joe Tedesco, I always have a camera in hand and a eye out for 'different' kinds of the same kind of work that I am use to.
An important lesson learned is 'my way is not the only way'. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat!
The lesson to be learned... sometimes when we have a strong opinion be careful, we may be treading on someone elses foot.
Good Luck, sorry to hear about your situation. I think I can say that all here will help if you want to be helped.
Pierre
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
I've discovered that an extra hour spent on a job, tidying up the few
parts of the installation that the customer, and their friends can see, pays off.
I've never been out of work since I started in 1953.
It doesn't take much longer, perhaps 20 to 30 minutes, to straighten
the cables, and drive a couple of dozen staples.
Try it, you'll like the results.
Ed
[ September 05, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
Wrong. This is the service in the house of a one of my friends.
I've discovered that an extra hour spent on a job, tidying up the few
parts of the installation that the customer, and their friends can see, pays off.
I've never been out of work since I started in 1953.
It doesn't take much longer, perhaps 20 to 30 minutes, to straighten
the cables, and drive a couple of dozen staples.
Try it, you'll like the results.
Ed
[ September 05, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
G
Guest
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Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
[ September 28, 2003, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
[ September 28, 2003, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
G
Guest
Guest
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
You are a man after my own heart. When it comes to craftsmanship you and I are on the same page. Is the name of your company "Electricity as an Art Form"? I mean that with the utmost respect & compliments.
../Wayne
PS: I'm going to talk to my AHJ about the Romex protection. My beliefs are dated, dusty, and rusty. Thanks for helping me dust this one off. I'll report back to you with my findings. In my early experience I had my chops busted many times by an AHJ about exposed Romex and it just became internalized that it's not permitted. Now I can step back and check the facts. Personally, I will continue to cover up exposed Romex, but I won't feel bound by that as an enforceable rule-- subject to my pending confirmation. I also realize-- and stated in my original post that there are places where the same rules and standards don't apply anyway: (agricultural, various states, countries, etc.). There are many different ways around the world to cut the cheese.
[ September 05, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
Ed,
You are a man after my own heart. When it comes to craftsmanship you and I are on the same page. Is the name of your company "Electricity as an Art Form"? I mean that with the utmost respect & compliments.
../Wayne
PS: I'm going to talk to my AHJ about the Romex protection. My beliefs are dated, dusty, and rusty. Thanks for helping me dust this one off. I'll report back to you with my findings. In my early experience I had my chops busted many times by an AHJ about exposed Romex and it just became internalized that it's not permitted. Now I can step back and check the facts. Personally, I will continue to cover up exposed Romex, but I won't feel bound by that as an enforceable rule-- subject to my pending confirmation. I also realize-- and stated in my original post that there are places where the same rules and standards don't apply anyway: (agricultural, various states, countries, etc.). There are many different ways around the world to cut the cheese.
[ September 05, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
Wayne,
I must assume that you would also object to AC cable, MC cable, Flexible Metal Conduit, Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit and Rigid NonMetallic conduit installed in exposed locations. All of these wiring methods say tha you cannot use them where exposed to physical damage.
Don
Wayne,
I must assume that you would also object to AC cable, MC cable, Flexible Metal Conduit, Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit and Rigid NonMetallic conduit installed in exposed locations. All of these wiring methods say tha you cannot use them where exposed to physical damage.
Don
G
Guest
Guest
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
I would look at the circumstances. I guess I was set up by those first few encounters with the AHJ. The were hard nosed. What they said made sense, so I internalized it as true and never questioned it. It's hard to question authority, and doubly hard when what they say makes perfect sense. It's fortunate that I am starting "fresh" and can re-formulate my beliefs with the help of this forum.
I have seen situations where simple armor would not be enough to protect a cable from damage. In those cases rigid pipe, EMT, or even poles cemented in the ground would be required (for example where a fork lift could run into an MC, or where cars might run into EMT).
What is the consensus on running say UF through a trench, daylighting it, and then stapling it to plywood siding on its way to an outdoor light fixture under a well covered eave?
I think I have been fairly careful in qualifying all my remarks. It's a belief, based on an interpretation by an AHJ many years ago.
I wish the electrical code were a more straight-forward read. The terminology is confusing, contradictory, downright wrong (when mis-typed), and intimidating. The whole thing should be rewritten and distilled down to its basic elements. There is way to much room for interpretation regarding protecting Romex, or how many NM's through a hole, etc. It is counter-productive to be able to spin the code so many different ways depending on who's writing the rules, who's implementing the work, and who's enforcing the rules. It's like when one Professor writes an exam and yet another one grades the exam. Whew!
Thanks for playing!
../Wayne
I would look at the circumstances. I guess I was set up by those first few encounters with the AHJ. The were hard nosed. What they said made sense, so I internalized it as true and never questioned it. It's hard to question authority, and doubly hard when what they say makes perfect sense. It's fortunate that I am starting "fresh" and can re-formulate my beliefs with the help of this forum.
I have seen situations where simple armor would not be enough to protect a cable from damage. In those cases rigid pipe, EMT, or even poles cemented in the ground would be required (for example where a fork lift could run into an MC, or where cars might run into EMT).
What is the consensus on running say UF through a trench, daylighting it, and then stapling it to plywood siding on its way to an outdoor light fixture under a well covered eave?
I think I have been fairly careful in qualifying all my remarks. It's a belief, based on an interpretation by an AHJ many years ago.
I wish the electrical code were a more straight-forward read. The terminology is confusing, contradictory, downright wrong (when mis-typed), and intimidating. The whole thing should be rewritten and distilled down to its basic elements. There is way to much room for interpretation regarding protecting Romex, or how many NM's through a hole, etc. It is counter-productive to be able to spin the code so many different ways depending on who's writing the rules, who's implementing the work, and who's enforcing the rules. It's like when one Professor writes an exam and yet another one grades the exam. Whew!
Thanks for playing!
../Wayne
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
That would be a direct violation of 300.5(D)(1).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
OK guys here is my picture.
Maybe a moderator with some free time could cut this thread down to match the name of the topic.
Add some more hair and that's me
OK guys here is my picture.
Maybe a moderator with some free time could cut this thread down to match the name of the topic.
Add some more hair and that's me
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Re: NEC Poster's!! Can I see what you look like too?
i suppose i'll get picked on about my ladder ettiquite now , end up poster boy for some safety thread?
not a problem,but you'll need to catch me first!
i'm part squirrel.....
[ September 27, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: romex jockey ]
i suppose i'll get picked on about my ladder ettiquite now , end up poster boy for some safety thread?
not a problem,but you'll need to catch me first!
i'm part squirrel.....
[ September 27, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: romex jockey ]
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