Need help with phone & cable prewire..

[hbiss]

After the first warranty call for "hey, most my TVs don't work"

How is that a warranty issue? Was there any problem with your wiring? If the cable company happens to charge for connecting additional locations you KNOW the customer is going to try to get you to do it for free. It's not a question of warranty.

The question comes to mind also, what is the cable company charging for? I'm not sure cable companies have a per month charge for additional sets anymore but I could be wrong. If you activate every jack for the customer and the cable company does have this charge then your company faces a liability issue because of aiding and abetting theft of service.

This sounds like a policy issue which was not spelled out in your contract. You don't provide cable TV, you only provide the wiring for it. What happens after that is the customer's responsibility, between them and the service provider. You should have told them to call the cable company.

-Hal

 

[brantmacga]

sparky, one other thing i found from suttle; they offer a 25 yr warranty compared to leviton's 20 yr warranty and they also have a more extensive training program on their website. check it out suttlesoho.com

 

[hbiss]

one other thing i found from suttle; they offer a 25 yr warranty compared to leviton's 20 yr warranty

20 or 25 year warranty? That's a joke right? We'll be using brainwaves by then.

-Hal

 

[brantmacga]

they warranty the cable and passive components. its a nice feature for those who feel its a risk to install it in their home and have it quit working within a couple of years like most tech items do.

 

[hbiss]

Too bad their brains didn't come with a warranty. A twenty year warranty on something like that is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. They could just as well make it 50 years. Only one who might benefit from it is the landfill and the manufacturer knows it. Just another way to suck people in.

Apparently we have gone full circle, we are back to talking about being able to easily replace wiring.

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

20 or 25 year warranty? That's a joke right? We'll be using brainwaves by then.

I sure hope I still am!

 

[brantmacga]

hal i made a rude comment this morning and i apologize for knocking your opinion. i took offense to the negative responses you made regarding information i was trying to give to sparky, and again, i am sorry.

 

[hbiss]

No problem. I apoligize also for interfering with something that was between you and sparky.

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

And I apologize, too, but I don't remember what for.

 

[brantmacga]

bff?

 

[LarryFine]

I just remembered!

 

[peter d]

Yeah, so back to the original topic....

I generally use the cheap cat 3 cable for phone lines, or even 22/4 quad. It's just a phone, right?

Cable outlets get rg 6. And if there is any doubt - "smurf tube" to a lv ring.

I agree with Hal. Everything gets dropped in the basement and coiled up so the cable and phone company techs can terminate it. That is SOP around here. "home network systems" and those multimedia cabinets are not as common as one would think.

I agree with the others that if I am paid I will pull 12 RG6's to one spot if that's what they need. But for basic homes, basic is what they get, and it's usually good enough.

 

[brantmacga]

using cat3 works fine w/ phones head-ended to the demarc, but if installing a central DD, leviton and suttle, and i'm sure anyone else, requires the use of cat5 for you to get warranty coverage. cat3 is no longer a recognized standard w/ eia/tia. leviton requires all 8 conductors to be terminated at both ends, using the A standard on an rj45 terminal for phones. suttle does not recommend this because pins 1 & 8 can be damaged by an rj11 plug. anyway, just an fyi.

 

[EV607797]

I've been watching this thread

I've been watching this thread

Hi, All:

I have been a lurker here for some time and finally got connected today. I am in full agreement with Hal's way of thinking. I've been working in the electrical and telecommunications industries since 1974. I like to think that I know what I am doing. I've also learned through the school of hard knocks.

Structured wiring systems sound like a great idea, but they really are just marketing. It's just another "ooh, ahh" box on the wall in the basement. The typical home owner has absolutely no clue what it does or how to use it. Nor does the cable, telephone or computer company. If anything, they complain that the "other guy" was in there. They are way to congested for standard practices. There is way too much effort being spent trying to reinvent the wheel.

Bear in mind, the manufacturers of these panels set their own standards by offering their own training, or as they like to refer to it "certification". Send me to a one-day class at the local Holiday Inn or an on-line course to learn how to become a master electrician and I might buy into that strategy.

Truth is, you cannot possibly learn all of the intracacies of any trade through something as simplistic as "EZLearn". Manufacturers lead contractors and end users into believing that whatever is in the bottle they are selling is the thing that you must buy. It's not that simple.

How about testing for imbalance on a circuit when using these systems? How about locating causes for ring trip? Do these classes include the necessary (very expensive) test equipment? How about testing for other things, like jitter, latency or slips? There is SO much more to the telecommunications industry than pulling a cable and terminating it. If you can install it, but you don't know how to fix it, are you really doing your customer a service? Nope.

Most low-voltage trades, as in telecommunications, CATV, video surveillance and alarm really do prefer that the cables be left for them to terminate. It makes no sense whatsoever to force them to have to create transitional connectivity to make the structured wiring system work. Smurf tube and perhaps some empty conduits or pull strings are usually all these guys want and they are happy to get them. I can assure you that I would much rather encounter a house full of pull strings and empty conduit than any structured wiring system can offer. Remember the old days when the local telephone company mandated the appropriate number of empty conduits with pull strings that needed to be installed and where? Why does everyone seem to be in such a hurry to run away from something that was so simple and still made money?

I have a pile of modules from various structured wiring panels sitting in my office that have failed. We could not obtain replacements. One was made (or marketed) by IBM! What did we have to do to restore the customer's service? Perform temporary splicing to restore service with Scotchloks, make a dozen phone calls and an equal number of Internet searches, only to tell the customer that it's not available and the temporary solution is all that can be done. I might also add, Verizon won't touch these things whatsoever, despite the fact that they sold them in their new home wiring packages. This, even if the customer pays extra for inside wiring maintenance.

Has anyone here encountered that situation where they need to find a main breaker, oh just let me be creative here, for a 200 amp Pushmatic panel? You immediately shake your head with a resounding "YES" on that one. It's the same thing with structured wiring panels, only worse. Every one of them is unique, most don't offer any interchangable parts, and the manufacturers change design regularly. Leviton's panels won't support anyone else's "fufu" module, nor will Suttle's, ICC's, Hubbell's or the myriad of imported no-name "systems". What happens when the local supply house chain stops carrying Leviton and switches over to Cooper (Eagle)? Special order time through another supply house.

Sorry to come in here with such a bang, but in my 30+ years working on both sides of this debate, I think that I know what works and what doesn't. I am sure that I may have rubbed some folks here the wrong way and for that, I apologize. I hope that's not the case. I am just trying to offer some perspective from the other side. I must say that I am very happy to have finally picked the lock to this place. There sure seems to be a lot going on.

 

[Michael15956]

Well EV,

Thank you for you input.

I'm new here also, but welcome to the forum.

I certainly welcome you and would like to benefit from all your experience because I'm also interested in this field.

As a "certified" Leviton Structure Wiring installer, I agree the manufacturer's classes are not much in depth in this field. But, they are a nice place for someone to start out with in this field.

BICSI has much better training standards, Level 1 Installer, Level 2 Installer and Technician. Each class is 40 hours and they do get involved with all the recommended testing standards. Yes, the testing equipment is expensive. I also agree that it is not good enough to just install but also to have the equipment and knowledge to trouble shoot and test.

Where I disagree is that no one is going to stop the integration of all the systems together. It is happening now and I believe that integrating will grow fast in the near future. One of my sources is Electrical Contractor Trade Magazine. It is full every month with the statistics on how fast Integrated Building Systems are growing. So, learning how to install/test/maintain and trouble shoot all the systems will be very beneficial now and in the future. Today, in my opinion special services/fields are disappearing. No longer can we say "it's not my job man." We are completing with the entire world now. We need to be better trained/skilled to complete. I believe that for survival in business a person/company has to be multi trained. Hiring just one contractor/company to install/test/maintain all the systems, including line voltage just makes good sense. It certainly makes the market bigger for that company.

And as far as the systems changing. Please believe this: the only constant in life is change! We either change or die.

Michael

 

[hbiss]

Where I disagree is that no one is going to stop the integration of all the systems together. It is happening now and I believe that integrating will grow fast in the near future. One of my sources is Electrical Contractor Trade Magazine.

You have to consider the source. It's a rather biased viewpoint to say the least. I can't see how the "I" buzz word can even be applied here. All these things do is cram descrete systems into one little box. That's not integration in my book.

BICSI is another story. It's more a cult that people either love or hate. Nothing they do carries any regulatory weight.

Hiring just one contractor/company to install/test/maintain all the systems, including line voltage just makes good sense.

It doesn't make any sense and it isn't going to happen. Ever heard the saying "jack of all trades, master of none"? If you think that ECs are going to have the time or the mindset or the money to become competent to install and service systems such as CATV, satellite, data networks, telephone, video and sound you are dreaming the wet dream of the electrical industry. How long has the telephone industry been deregulated? 1984 right. How come probably 75% of the electrical contractors I run across still can't install basic telephone wiring correctly or even wire a jack correctly?


Today, in my opinion special services/fields are disappearing.

Sorry to break the news but those are other trades or industries that you are trivializing and I seriously doubt that they or the public are going to lie down and let the electrical industry march in and try to take over their jobs.


-Hal

 

[Michael15956]

Hal,

This will be my last statement of this subject. Don't see any use in going on and on about it.

As a owner of a small electrical contracting business, My company has not completed one residential electrical job without the owner/GC asking for some low voltage wiring to be installed. So, it is happening.

As for this statement: "Ever heard the saying "jack of all trades, master of none"? One does not have to be a master at this trade to be able to complete a good reliable installation. I believe that quote is for a person who just does not want to expand their knowledge. Please take no personal insult on the last sentence.

Anyway, do we ever master anything in this life? Isn't there always something more to learn?

Michael

 

[EV607797]

Yikes!

I didn't mean to start up a firestorm between you guys.

I still must disagree with you Michael, on your most recent response. OK, let's say that the GC insists that "Joe Electrician" runs a cable for a T1 circuit as part of a new construction job. He really doesn't know exactly what a T1 circuit is, I mean "220, 221, whatever it takes", it's just a CAT5 cable, right? It's just a cable that needs to be run from point A to point B, right? He then procures the material that some supply house catalog or counter man suggests that he use. He installs it the way that he thinks he should. Did he install the proper jacks to terminate such a circuit? The electrical inspector sure isn't going to know. These circuits don't use standard jacks to say the least, but they look similar.

When it doesn't work, "Joe Electrician" has absolutely no clue how to prove the phone company wrong and his installation right. We aren't just talking continuity here, and the phone companies have appointed themselves as God. They are always right, especially when the smell fear.

Back to reality, what happens three months later when there really is a problem? The phone company comes in and says that it's working fine outside. Are you going to be able to prove them wrong with a voltmeter? Of course not! They are going to come in with a $5,000.00 piece of test equipment that will prove that the problem is in your wiring even if it isn't. But where is the fault? Your $40.00 volt meter won't be worth taking out of your pouch. Therein lies the problem. You will run an entirely new cable or worse yet, pay someone to do this and it still won't work. The problem was in the telephone company's facilities the whole time, but you couldn't prove them wrong. You just ate $200.00 because they will never pay you or reimburse your customer for your charges.

There's a lot more behind low voltage that just the number of volts, the number of pairs or the cable's category rating.

Just because electrical contracting and low-voltage systems use wire, they aren't the same. They are completely different industries and they really need to be treated that way. I know that I am being terribly blunt with my example here, but it's not as simple as it used to be. The phrase "do it right or don't do it all" is really starting to matter.

Michael, please don't get me wrong; I am not questioning that you run a quality shop. I would assume that you run a top-notch operation or you wouldn't be here participating in this forum. Those who know me from other forums know that I am very, very vocal about cross-trade assumptions. Please understand that nothing that I have said was meant to offend anyone. I am just trying to get our industry's assumptions in check with reality. It's a big job, but I think I can do it.:grin:

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Generally I find those who insist that telcom and structured wiring is a horse of a different trade are those who seek to benefit by selling that idea while employing low-paid "techs" to install value-added features at prices far greater than any electrician would charge for a line-voltage device.

The basics behind all systems is the same. Most every unique "requirement" is based on the use of the manufacturer's specified hardware to generate sales, not satisfactory system results. It's a dirty little game that real electrical contractors see right through, but upstart opportunists in the "low voltage contractor" business need to play in order to survive.

I will agree, a worthwhile base system should include empty conduits and drag lines to a central termination point. The technology is always changing. As it happens, "low voltage techs" have zero pipe bending skills.

All permisis wiring, whether it be 500 mbps or 240v AC is electrician's work. The "low voltage techs" should stay behind the counter at Best Buy.

 

[zbang]

I've kinda ignored this thread for a while...

I generally use the cheap cat 3 cable for phone lines, or even 22/4 quad. It's just a phone, right?

Just "phone" until someone tries to use a digital key system or run their DSL. Better to stick with 4pr cat3, nothing says shoddy work like finding 'quad' cable (24g/4w, untwisted) in new construction. Would you run some NM along the fence to a hot tub? It's just electricity, isn't it? Use the right stuff for the job.

Generally I find those who insist that telcom and structured wiring is a horse of a different trade

How similar are residential and MV industrial? Not much, IMHO. While the principals are the same, the practices are a wee bit different. Same for 120 and LV work, especially when you have telecom, FA, BA, A/V, etc. As questions on this forum indicate, many other people think there's a difference.

As it happens, "low voltage techs" have zero pipe bending skills.
The "low voltage techs" should stay behind the counter at Best Buy.

Let it all out... I don't know which low-voltage techs you've seen, but the ones I've contracted did fast & excellent work, and they weren't cheap, either. If they couldn't bend pipe, the got someone that could. Their cable-dressing and labeling skill were second to none. While their cable skills weren't quite up to telco CO quality, they were close (for instance, you lace cable in a CO, no tie-wraps).

Back when I was doing PA work (hotels & schools), we could usually tell which work was done by the main EC and which by the PA system installing contractor. The EC's work often looked like they didn't care and wouldn't see that job again. The PA contractors work looked like the expected to be maintaining and expanding the system for years to come.