NEVER trust the test/reset buttons on a GFCI

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mbrooke said:
Well, ID say this: those circuit breakers that passed power but no GFI protection it was because a lost hot or neutral did it? And those GFCIs that had power they could not test or reset, correct?
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user 100 said:
FPE breakers have been known to jam shut and stay closed- whether this is due to it being reset after a trip, or jamming anyway after being first turned on and not responding to a trip in the first place, IDK. Very hairy on old split bus or main lug only panels w/ no main (the fpe main had its problems too, but at least there would have been the one extra layer of protection, albeit at a higher trip rating).

I believe that the GFCI lockout is a newer conception-many older gfcis with failed electronics continued to provide power when the test button was pressed.
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I have to agree that newer receptacle style GFCI's are better at locking themselves out from some failures, and have had listing requirements for some of those changes.

I don't think they have done much to circuit breaker type GFCI's though when it comes to locking them out when there is no protection or compromised protection.

If this were a true life safety device they would have more failsafe features and would cost a lot more then they do.

There are not a lot of FPE breakers around here, but I have never run into one that fails to open when switched. If would I run into one that failed to trip when required there was probably a fire. Long time ago we did have a house fire nearby that had a FPE panel, house was a total loss. Fire started at an appliance, but do not know if FPE breaker was a contributing factor or not, just was reported there was a failure in that appliance.
 
mbrooke said:
I think one must ask how much does it cost to manufacture a GFCI...
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Apparently for the receptacle type at least less then $10 or else they are not making any profit, for GFCI circuit breakers at least less then $35-40 for single poles and maybe $75 or so for two poles, again if any more then that there is no way you could purchase them for the prices we do.
 
kwired said:
Apparently for the receptacle type at least less then $10 or else they are not making any profit, for GFCI circuit breakers at least less then $35-40 for single poles and maybe $75 or so for two poles, again if any more then that there is no way you could purchase them for the prices we do.
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Which leads me to think, an extra $1 that would go a long way is frowned upon.
 
mbrooke said:
I think one must ask how much does it cost to manufacture a GFCI...
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kwired said:
Apparently for the receptacle type at least less then $10 or else they are not making any profit, for GFCI circuit breakers at least less then $35-40 for single poles and maybe $75 or so for two poles, again if any more then that there is no way you could purchase them for the prices we do.
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The free market at work-they have the right to charge whatever they deem necessary to recoup whatever they have invested. To be fair, the cost of GFCIs has dropped preciptiously over the last 3 decades or so while at the same time the product has become steadily more reliable- there are still failures and an occasional defect here and there but todays gfci is a far better product than its predecessors.

mbrooke said:
Which leads me to think, an extra $1 that would go a long way is frowned upon.
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The bottom line is that manufacturers only have to meet an established standard- and until that standard changes, manufacturers are under no obligation to do anything more to improve their product.
 
user 100 said:
The free market at work-they have the right to charge whatever they deem necessary to recoup whatever they have invested. To be fair, the cost of GFCIs has dropped preciptiously over the last 3 decades or so while at the same time the product has become steadily more reliable- there are still failures and an occasional defect here and there but todays gfci is a far better product than its predecessors.
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I would agree here, but Im still the one to say we have a few minor bugs to work out.


The bottom line is that manufacturers only have to meet an established standard- and until that standard changes, manufacturers are under no obligation to do anything more to improve their product.
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I agree, and if I may, the new revised UL standard may have been a mistake. I doubt it would catch this failure mode.
 
mbrooke said:
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I agree, and if I may, the new revised UL standard may have been a mistake. I doubt it would catch this failure mode.
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I doubt it would catch that failure, but I would expect that failure of the electronics is much more common than failure of a contact to open. There was a study a number of years ago that said after 7 years only about 40% of the GFCI devices still worked, but the study was limited to areas that experience thunderstorms.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I doubt it would catch that failure, but I would expect that failure of the electronics is much more common than failure of a contact to open. There was a study a number of years ago that said after 7 years only about 40% of the GFCI devices still worked, but the study was limited to areas that experience thunderstorms.
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That failure rate for that type of region certainly sounds reasonable/plausible and there is nothing gfci manufacturers (or really any of us) can do to effectively prevent lightning associated power surges from damaging these devices- can't control Mother Nature.:)
 
user 100 said:
That failure rate for that type of region certainly sounds reasonable/plausible and there is nothing gfci manufacturers (or really any of us) can do to effectively prevent lightning associated power surges from damaging these devices- can't control Mother Nature.:)
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There is one thing: take out the electronics. Though Im not 100% sure how well that can be done at 5ma 60Hz.
 
mbrooke said:
Correct, the solid state components. Mechanical components can resit lightning better than semi conductors.
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I have seen irrigation pump panels that have been hit by lightning that you wouldn't want to use much of anything that is in there, never checked for functionality though so don't know for certain what was still functional, and there generally isn't any solid state components in them unless a timer of some sort has been added to the controls. Seen plug in utility meters on such services laying on other side of road as well after a lightning strike. But yes it takes a pretty direct hit to damage mechanical components and just a surge from a remote strike to take out solid state components.
 
kwired said:
But yes it takes a pretty direct hit to damage mechanical components and just a surge from a remote strike to take out solid state components.
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I agree, and thats the down fall of solid state components. Something like this would be better imo:



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***Update***

***Update***

Ok, good news. I just received this Email from a Leviton employee:cool: (In case I forgot to mention, Leviton contacted me regarding the issue to which I sent them the GFCI in question for investigation)

Good Morning,

Tuesday, we received the GFCI from the YouTube video (link below) and performed an analysis of the product. The sample is identified as a Phase 7 style GFCI, with date code 1A10I (January 2010).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQXsCc11qc

Using an Ohm meter, the GFCI was initially found to have welded Phase side face (receptacle) contacts. When the sample was opened, the weld broke. In accordance with our safety certification and in production, multiple tests are performed to assure this does not occur. On a weekly basis Endurance, Low Resistance Ground Fault, Extra Low Resistance Ground Fault, Short Circuit and Overload tests are performed. These tests evaluate the GFCI’s ability to open a circuit under extreme conditions. Therefore this weld is an extremely rare occurrence. This typically indicates the GFCI has seen significant use/abuse and/or an overcurrent condition (see image below). In this instance, we believe an overcurrent condition is the most likely cause.

The video posted on YouTube demonstrates the user connecting a light bulb from the Phase face contact to ground. With the GFCI contacts welded, the device will provide power from the Phase side even when the device is tripped, as the video shows. However, when the bulb is connected from Phase to Neutral on the face, the bulb does not light up. This is because the Neutral side was not welded and those contacts were open preventing the flow of electricity. The sound that can be heard in the video when the light bulb is connected from Phase to ground, is the GFCI firing the trip solenoid in attempt to remove the fault. Since there is welded contacts, the device will continuously fire when there is a fault until it burns the coil open. It appears that the end user continued apply a fault even after the video ended since the trip coil is burned open (large red circle in image below.)
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Also want to point out that Leviton is indeed correct when they say the light bulb test continued even after the video was over. I tried to see if the GFCI would still hold even under a continuous ground fault, where 15-20 seconds latter I started to smell burning plastic. Afterwards the GFCI would not reset, so the solenoid burning up as pictured makes sense to me.



As for the overload mentioned, appliances will be moved around and the 20amp breaker is getting changed out ASAP in case its failing to trip when its supposed to.
 
This typically indicates the GFCI has seen significant use/abuse and/or an overcurrent condition (see image below). In this instance, we believe an overcurrent condition is the most likely cause.
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What load did you have on it?
Was it in your kitchen?
Just curious: Why did you do that test?
 
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