NEVER trust the test/reset buttons on a GFCI

[kwired]

For the actual start/stop buttons I have only seen green for start and red for stop, but have seen it both ways for the indicating lights.

I guess, my point is, you really know what the lights mean in that facility.

So going back to the point I was originally trying to make - If the "run indicator" is on regardless of what color it is, the controlled motor may or may not be running depending on what assurances were made for the indicator to actually mean the motor is running. Otherwise all it may mean is that the contact that closes the circuit to the indicator light is closed, could be stuck, contactor may be pulled in but motor circuit breaker is open, could have a push to test feature but that has failed in a closed condition....many possibilities depending on what the design was intended to include or exclude and what failure modes were considered as well.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So going back to the point I was originally trying to make - If the "run indicator" is on regardless of what color it is, the controlled motor may or may not be running depending on what assurances were made for the indicator to actually mean the motor is running. Otherwise all it may mean is that the contact that closes the circuit to the indicator light is closed, could be stuck, contactor may be pulled in but motor circuit breaker is open, could have a push to test feature but that has failed in a closed condition....many possibilities depending on what the design was intended to include or exclude and what failure modes were considered as well.

I did one job where the owner required a relay with a 480 volt coil to be connected to the load side of the starter to prove that the power to the motor was on for those very reasons.

 

[kwired]

I did one job where the owner required a relay with a 480 volt coil to be connected to the load side of the starter to prove that the power to the motor was on for those very reasons.

That is one more step to eliminate some possibilities, now if there is a local disconnect at the motor it can still indicate a motor is running even though it isn't.

 

[iwire]

That is one more step to eliminate some possibilities, now if there is a local disconnect at the motor it can still indicate a motor is running even though it isn't.

K, who are you explaining this too? We all know this stuff. :?

 

[kwired]

K, who are you explaining this too? We all know this stuff. :?

Maybe redundant to some, but there is a lot of potential people that read things here, did I do something wrong other then allow you to waste your time by reading it?

 

[mbrooke]

Still holding on to the GFCI. Anyone found a Leviton contact yet? My plan is to let them examine it as I am neither a testing lab nor do I have the expertise to trouble shoot this internally. (Then again Leviton could just sweep it under the rug:roll

 

[kwired]

Still holding on to the GFCI. Anyone found a Leviton contact yet? My plan is to let them examine it as I am neither a testing lab nor do I have the expertise to trouble shoot this internally. (Then again Leviton could just sweep it under the rug:roll

Something tells me they are not that interested in examining it unless they have a large number of units with same failure and haven't yet discovered why.

 

[K8MHZ]

Still holding on to the GFCI. Anyone found a Leviton contact yet? My plan is to let them examine it as I am neither a testing lab nor do I have the expertise to trouble shoot this internally. (Then again Leviton could just sweep it under the rug:roll

I found some contact info. I, too, would be suspicious about them ignoring the issue. What I would to would be to contact Leviton and let them know you will be taking the failed unit apart and taking pictures of it so you can post them on the Internet for others to see. Let it be their idea that you send the unit back to them if you get a response.

North American Locations:
Leviton Mfg. Company Inc.
201 North Service Rd.
Melville, NY 11747
Phone: 800.323.8920
Fax: 800.832.9538

 

[mbrooke]

Something tells me they are not that interested in examining it unless they have a large number of units with same failure and haven't yet discovered why.

Or that they rather not here about these failures

 

[mbrooke]

*hear

 

[kwired]

I doubt they mind hearing about problems with products, but don't think they would be too interested in seeing every single item that had a failure or defect, until there is a particular product with a significant number of reported issues.

I'd guess there is a good chance they may send you a replacement or paperwork to get one free at a distributor though.

 

[romex jockey]

I'm more curious as to what the test button actually tests...~RJ~

 

[kwired]

I'm more curious as to what the test button actually tests...~RJ~

On an AFCI nobody really knows, but on a GFCI it places a resistor across the lines with only one lead thru the CT, this will give same effect to the CT as a real ground fault would, and the resistor is sized so that the test current level is near the 4-6 mA threshold that is required for GFCI protection.

 

[mbrooke]

I doubt they mind hearing about problems with products, but don't think they would be too interested in seeing every single item that had a failure or defect, until there is a particular product with a significant number of reported issues.

I'd guess there is a good chance they may send you a replacement or paperwork to get one free at a distributor though.

But lets look at it like this: will following the manufacture's instructions expose this type of failure in any significant number?

 

[mbrooke]

On an AFCI nobody really knows, but on a GFCI it places a resistor across the lines with only one lead thru the CT, this will give same effect to the CT as a real ground fault would, and the resistor is sized so that the test current level is near the 4-6 mA threshold that is required for GFCI protection.

On Levion units does not the test button unlatch (trip) the GFCI while the reset button engages the trip coil via CT imbalance resistor allowing the mechanism to reset?

 

[ggunn]

I think that Bob's point is that you really have no idea what the red and green colors mean. While in most of the plants I have worked in, the green would mean that the motor was running, but in some the red would mean that.

In all of the medium voltage switch gear I have worked on, the red means the breaker is closed and the green means the breaker is open.

The last CRT TV I bought (several years ago now) had a green LED that was on when the TV was off and which was off when the TV was on. I brought it home and plugged it in (of course I didn't RTFM) and the light was on. I thought that meant the TV was on, so I waited, but no picture appeared. I hit the power button and the light went off, but I thought that meant the TV was off, so I hit the power button again before the set had time to come on. The LED came on, so I waited... I repeated this several times. Finally, convinced that the TV was defective, I took it back to the store and exchanged it. The new one did the same thing (of course), but then I gave up in disgust and turned it "off" and left the room. It came on with the volume maxxed and scared me half to death.

Duh.

 

[ELA]

Why interrupt the neutral?

Why interrupt the neutral?

Interesting find mBrooke,
Why does a gfci break both hot and neutral? Seems in this failure mode it might be a more evident failure if it did not.

 

[kwired]

Interesting find mBrooke,
Why does a gfci break both hot and neutral? Seems in this failure mode it might be a more evident failure if it did not.

Neutral to ground fault or a non protected ungrounded conductor faulted to a protected neutral would not interrupt any current flow if it didn't open the neutral. We are trying to protect the users from current flowing outside the "normal" current path.

 

[mbrooke]

Interesting find mBrooke,
Why does a gfci break both hot and neutral? Seems in this failure mode it might be a more evident failure if it did not.

No idea of the exact reasoning, but I do know that a neutral can become live of disconnected some place. That and maybe to protect against reversed polarity.

 

[kwired]

No idea of the exact reasoning, but I do know that a neutral can become live of disconnected some place. That and maybe to protect against reversed polarity.

If there is voltage drop on neutral (which there is if current is flowing) then there will be neutral to ground voltage and current will flow during a neutral to ground fault. If you are in that current path you want the GFCI to open the neutral to stop that current.

Majority of incidents neutral to ground voltage is minimal and unnoticed. Get around a swimming pool, hot tub, etc. and suddenly everything around you is conductive enough to be dangerous with even that minimal current.