NEVER trust the test/reset buttons on a GFCI

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mbrooke said:
Anyone know of or know how I could Email a Leviton rep?
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For one device, it may be dismissed as a malfunction or even damaged, they may replace it for you though. If you can provide evidence of same problem all across a particular lot or run of product they may be more willing to listen to your concerns and take more action then just replacing one item. JMO.
 
kwired said:
For one device, it may be dismissed as a malfunction or even damaged, they may replace it for you though. If you can provide evidence of same problem all across a particular lot or run of product they may be more willing to listen to your concerns and take more action then just replacing one item. JMO.
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If this is across many devices, who would know or find out?
 
iwire said:
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Let me ask you this, you walk into an room, there is a single magnetic motor starter on the wall, it has a green and a red indicator lamp on it.

The green light is on, the red light is off.

Is the motor running or stopped?
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kwired said:
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Presuming nothing else failed the motor is running, otherwise all the green light means is the aux contact that operates it is closed for some reason, if you want even more fool proof you may need additional sensors to determine if the driven load is actually functioning, but even those can fail in an unusual way, which is where this topic is headed, how much additional measures is justified? If a welded contact is a common problem in this line of devices maybe the design of the contact needs looked at more so then how to detect when it happens.
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I think that Bob's point is that you really have no idea what the red and green colors mean. While in most of the plants I have worked in, the green would mean that the motor was running, but in some the red would mean that.

In all of the medium voltage switch gear I have worked on, the red means the breaker is closed and the green means the breaker is open.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I think that Bob's point is that you really have no idea what the red and green colors mean. While in most of the plants I have worked in, the green would mean that the motor was running, but in some the red would mean that.
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I can agree if you have no reference to what red and green should mean then you have no idea. But red is pretty common for stop or off and green is pretty common for other then stop.
 
kwired said:
I can agree if you have no reference to what red and green should mean then you have no idea. But red is pretty common for stop or off and green is pretty common for other then stop.
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But for all of the medium voltage switch gear I have worked with, it has been the opposite, and in some of the plants I have worked in it has been the opposite for motors.
There are two differing ideas on what the colors should mean. Where red is used for "on", it means the equipment is operating and you, the human, needs to "stop"...stay away to be safe.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
But for all of the medium voltage switch gear I have worked with, it has been the opposite, and in some of the plants I have worked in it has been the opposite for motors.
There are two differing ideas on what the colors should mean. Where red is used for "on", it means the equipment is operating and you, the human, needs to "stop"...stay away to be safe.
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I can see there being more confusion for an indicator lamp, for a start and stop pushbutton however I can't ever recall seeing them being anything but green being start and red being stop when those are the only two colors used.

I have seen many red indicator lamps from simple "running" indicators, to "stopped indicators" to alarm or other abnormal condition indication, but if green is involved it is often usually either "running", "ready", or "all monitored conditions are normal" or something along those lines. I don't do medium voltage work.

Something also tells me that OSHA or at least some other recognized standard that OSHA may like to see used will have reserved those colors for certain specific items.
 
kwired said:
I can see there being more confusion for an indicator lamp, for a start and stop pushbutton however I can't ever recall seeing them being anything but green being start and red being stop when those are the only two colors used.

I have seen many red indicator lamps from simple "running" indicators, to "stopped indicators" to alarm or other abnormal condition indication, but if green is involved it is often usually either "running", "ready", or "all monitored conditions are normal" or something along those lines. I don't do medium voltage work.

Something also tells me that OSHA or at least some other recognized standard that OSHA may like to see used will have reserved those colors for certain specific items.
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For the actual start/stop buttons I have only seen green for start and red for stop, but have seen it both ways for the indicating lights.

I guess, my point is, you really know what the lights mean in that facility.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
... In all of the medium-voltage switch gear I have worked on, the red means the breaker is closed and the green means the breaker is open.
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I've seen two conventions, briefly stated:

Green: All is well, normal operation
Red: Something is not working. (including a breaker deliberately opened to permit maintenance)

- or -

Green: Equipment is safe.
Red: A hazard may be present.

I can't say whether they both occurred in medium-voltage switchgear. At least one of them was in a place where the utility supplied 15kV, which the customer stepped down to 480 for in-facility distribution, and was then stepped up to 2300 and 4160 to power legacy equipment. (yes, troubleshooting & expansion were often entertaining)


The art & science of preventing misunderstandings like this is called "cognitive engineering". It's something like ergonomics for the mind, and is seldom taught (or even mentioned) in engineering school.
http://techdigest.jhuapl.edu/TD/td2604/Gersh.pdf
 
mbrooke said:
Oh man! :lol: In the utility world it used to be green closed red open. I still sometimes think it. God I miss the old ways.
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IME, for utility world breakers the old way was red closed, green open and still is. Don't ever recall one being otherwise.
 
mbrooke said:
I missed that! So wait, you are not supposed to connect the EGC from the GFCI to down stream outlets when the feed in has no EGC?
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According to current NEC, no

But methinks there is a history to this that may have flip/flopped over past code cycles , so what rationale was considered during those cycles may be anyone's guess. I would think self testing gfci's would factor in?





Id argue you would at least here some buzzing of the solenoid that can not engage. The R even at 22ohms would still light a LED through a 2000+ ohm resistor if considered.
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Interestingly enough, i've heard a number of gfci's buzz when having a problem , so perhaps that higer R value in older wired residences should be further investigated, if not megged,for egc validity...






Not following... jog my mind here. ;)
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Sorry , more a Q then...

I'm thinking older homes that have no egc's , yet a lot of metallics happily accommodating kichoffs law(s) as return paths , sometimes at palpable levels .

What happens if the load side toroidal makes contact with this ?

~RJ~
 
mbrooke said:
I know red was meant to be open at one point in time. Perhaps on the anucitators.
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or perhaps you are thinking valves at the utility? It is "opposite" since red means in service or energized. For a valve, in service is red/open such that flow occurs and green/closed is out of service and no flow.
 
mivey said:
or perhaps you are thinking valves at the utility? It is "opposite" since red means in service or energized. For a valve, in service is red/open such that flow occurs and green/closed is out of service and no flow.
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Maybe, but I swear at one point it was red off green on, at least around here.
 
romex jockey said:
According to current NEC, no

But methinks there is a history to this that may have flip/flopped over past code cycles , so what rationale was considered during those cycles may be anyone's guess. I would think self testing gfci's would factor in?







Interestingly enough, i've heard a number of gfci's buzz when having a problem , so perhaps that higer R value in older wired residences should be further investigated, if not megged,for egc validity...








Sorry , more a Q then...

I'm thinking older homes that have no egc's , yet a lot of metallics happily accommodating kichoffs law(s) as return paths , sometimes at palpable levels .

What happens if the load side toroidal makes contact with this ?

~RJ~
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I would think it still trips. Any current imbalance of 5ma gets the GFCI going. As for self test GFCIs I don't think they take advantage of the EGC.
 
mbrooke said:
Maybe, but I swear at one point it was red off green on, at least around here.
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There is no standard, although NFPA79 has some suggestions.

At one time the Square D standard ON pilot light was red (I think to meet JIC standards) and Cutler-Hammer's was green. We had a price adder for changing the color as it required special drawings when done at factory.
 
mbrooke said:
Maybe, but I swear at one point it was red off green on, at least around here.
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and I may have seen such but do not recall it, at least for utility equipment but memory fades with time. Everything I have seen in near history is red/closed, but I don't travel everywhere.

Retail customers could spec some stuff on their MV equipment that did not match the utility, green/red swap included.
 
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