NEVER trust the test/reset buttons on a GFCI

[K8MHZ]

one tri color would be good.

green - its all good
yellow - no gfault but problem with ecg
red - fault and tripped, or, fused contacts have been detected

That would never, ever be accepted. It makes too much sense.

We will probably end up with a screen that shows four different icons that only a person that appreciates abstract art would understand. Like the ones in your car.

 

[mbrooke]

That would never, ever be accepted. It makes too much sense.

:lol: My vote for post of the year Beautifully said. :thumbsup:

 

[K8MHZ]

:lol: My vote for post of the year Beautifully said. :thumbsup:

Thank you! I added to it while you were posting.

 

[mbrooke]

Thank you! I added to it while you were posting.

Even better

 

[romex jockey]

Fascinating thread Mr MBrooke.

Your test methodology is inspiring ,and brings code history to mind.....

If i'm not mistaken, older code cycles flipped back/forth on branch circuit extensions made from non-egc circuitry via gfci's , perhaps you've stumbled on the underlying rationale?

Some of these past concerns predated art 406, and existed in 210.8 , yet here is the '14>>>


406.4(D)(2)(b) comes to mind>

(b) A non-grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be per-
mitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
"No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding con-
ductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-
interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

as well as the recent 250.130 (C) (4) change>

(4) An· equipment grounding conductor that is part of an-
other branch circuit that originates from the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch
circuit originates

Bottom line, we've the tried true toridial ,dependent on the ECG being married to an MBJ in a TN-C-S earthing system.

My Q is, what if this changes? For instance the recent 250.130(c)(4) change may be interpreted by some as installing a ECG off BX

Would this introduce enough R factor to light up your tester bulb?

Conversely, what if your serving Xformer proximity is such that your entire dwelling is essentially a noodle?

~RJ~

 

[iwire]

Not a very bright idea.

So it is not a 'bright idea' because it does not match your own personal opinion?:huh:


Let me ask you this, you walk into an room, there is a single magnetic motor starter on the wall, it has a green and a red indicator lamp on it.

The green light is on, the red light is off.

Is the motor running or stopped?

 

[iwire]

That would never, ever be accepted. It makes too much sense.

What makes sense to one intelligent person can make no sense to another intelligent person.

We see that all the time here on the forum.

 

[GoldDigger]

What makes sense to one intelligent person can make no sense to another intelligent person.

We see that all the time here on the forum.

Or, as I say to others from time to time:
"That is something about which even two intelligent people might disagree, so I am not at all surprised that you disagree with me."

 

[mbrooke]

Fascinating thread Mr MBrooke.

Your test methodology is inspiring ,and brings code history to mind.....

If i'm not mistaken, older code cycles flipped back/forth on branch circuit extensions made from non-egc circuitry via gfci's , perhaps you've stumbled on the underlying rationale?

Some of these past concerns predated art 406, and existed in 210.8 , yet here is the '14>>>


406.4(D)(2)(b) comes to mind>



as well as the recent 250.130 (C) (4) change>

I missed that! So wait, you are not supposed to connect the EGC from the GFCI to down stream outlets when the feed in has no EGC?

Bottom line, we've the tried true toridial ,dependent on the ECG being married to an MBJ in a TN-C-S earthing system.

My Q is, what if this changes? For instance the recent 250.130(c)(4) change may be interpreted by some as installing a ECG off BX

Would this introduce enough R factor to light up your tester bulb?

Id argue you would at least here some buzzing of the solenoid that can not engage. The R even at 22ohms would still light a LED through a 2000+ ohm resistor if considered.

Conversely, what if your serving Xformer proximity is such that your entire dwelling is essentially a noodle?

~RJ~

Not following... jog my mind here.

 

[K8MHZ]

So it is not a 'bright idea' because it does not match your own personal opinion?:huh:


Let me ask you this, you walk into an room, there is a single magnetic motor starter on the wall, it has a green and a red indicator lamp on it.

The green light is on, the red light is off.

Is the motor running or stopped?

This is the first mention of color you made. My GFCI's have neither red nor green. Just an amber when the unit is tripped. You would have got a different response from me if you mentioned color.

 

[iwire]

This is the first mention of color you made. My GFCI's have neither red nor green. Just an amber when the unit is tripped. You would have got a different response from me if you mentioned color.

Man you can be a PITA

OK, no colors mentioned

One indicator lamp of undetermined color is lit, is the motor running or stopped?







.

A lit LED is the OK to re-set sign for most people, not a warning sign.

I want to know how you determined this.

 

[mgookin]

Ok, so I ohmed out the GFCI. As I and others suspected I think the hot contact failing to separate is the culprit. When taken out the unit was in its tripped state. Neutral screw to neutral slot shows no continuity, hot to neutral shows no continuity while hot screw to hot slot shows zero ohms :blink:


Site is not letting upload the pics probably because they are to big.


With that said what next? Should I send this to Leviton, Bigclive or take it apart myself?

I'd preserve it. You have some history there and it may be of value.

One suggestion is to send Leviton a link to the video and tell them you shot that video and you and some colleagues are having a debate as to what's going on and you'd like their opinion. See how they respond. I'm sure you'll have their attention (they may have already seen the video).

 

[mbrooke]

I'd preserve it. You have some history there and it may be of value.

One suggestion is to send Leviton a link to the video and tell them you shot that video and you and some colleagues are having a debate as to what's going on and you'd like their opinion. See how they respond. I'm sure you'll have their attention (they may have already seen the video).

I might do just that. Id imagine someone here may have alerted them already. I know we have a few NEMA reps, maybe they can chime in.

 

[peter d]

This thread is........................

 

[mbrooke]

Anyone know of or know how I could Email a Leviton rep?

 

[peter d]

Anyone know of or know how I could Email a Leviton rep?

You could try going on Leviton's website, since they are probably on the interwebs. :roll::lol:

 

[kwired]

and GFCI on 2 wire circuits?

Didnt you mention early on the 2nd GFCI, the one that passed, was the same mfg as the the 1st?

Like you tho, Ive seen older (20+ years) GFCI fail in many ways:

1) Trip leaves complete circuit on GFCI
2) Trip leaves complete circuit on downstream/load side receptacles
3) Trip/reset do not work but pass a GFCI tester
4) Reverse of #3
5) Line/load wiring errors still allow 1-4 to happen.

Only #3 isnt a danger.

Most likely failure when condition #3 is present is a failure of the self test resistor circuit but no other component failures.

Make a 12' test lead to connect to neutral of another receptacle

GFCIs are intended to be installed in locations without EGCs and your suggestion would create a shock hazard

True scenario I have heard an inspector describe that happened to him once - outdoor GFCI receptacle, metal bell box, metal weatherproof cover, plugged in his "bug eyes" tester and it indicated open ground, he then pressed the GFCI test button on his tester and because there is no EGC the test puts 120 volts not only on the EGC terminal of the receptacle but also the box and cover the receptacle is bolted to, it did give him a good jolt. Whether or not the GFCI tripped, depends if line - load were connected properly (this story was long enough ago there wasn't line - load reversal protection in any units yet), if device was functioning properly, as well as how much current was flowing in the fault. The 4-6 threshold needed to trip them still will give you a pretty good tickle before the device trips.

That would allow the LED to stay lit after a trip if the contacts were welded, but the LED would also be on whether the GFCI was tripped or not. My GFCI LED's are off until the unit trips. A lit LED is the OK to re-set sign for most people, not a warning sign. Most people wouldn't know that the LED that was always on should go off when the unit trips. The LED would indicate the same for untripped with no internal failure as it would for tripped with an internal failure.

So it is not a 'bright idea' because it does not match your own personal opinion?:huh:


Let me ask you this, you walk into an room, there is a single magnetic motor starter on the wall, it has a green and a red indicator lamp on it.

The green light is on, the red light is off.

Is the motor running or stopped?

Presuming nothing else failed the motor is running, otherwise all the green light means is the aux contact that operates it is closed for some reason, if you want even more fool proof you may need additional sensors to determine if the driven load is actually functioning, but even those can fail in an unusual way, which is where this topic is headed, how much additional measures is justified? If a welded contact is a common problem in this line of devices maybe the design of the contact needs looked at more so then how to detect when it happens.

 

[mbrooke]

This thread is........................

:roll::roll:

You could try going on Leviton's website, since they are probably on the interwebs. :roll::lol:

I bet it will go to some low level DIY rep "just turn off the fuse then switch it back on so the memory can re-boot. The buzzing you hear should then go away. Consult the manual that came without your purchase for further clarification. If you are unsure of any step please consult a licensed electrician " :lol: Id like a legit rep to see this.

 

[K8MHZ]

Man you can be a PITA

OK, no colors mentioned

One indicator lamp of undetermined color is lit, is the motor running or stopped?

If there is no label, I would not make any assumption. The lamp just may indicate there is power to the starter. It may indicate there is power to the coils regardless if the contacts closed. It may mean the contacts are closed and powered and for some reason the motor is not running.

I may be a PITA, but years of doing electrical troubleshooting has made me that way. I have learned to take nothing for granted.

I want to know how you determined this.

I asked them.

 

[kwired]

If there is no label, I would not make any assumption. The lamp just may indicate there is power to the starter. It may indicate there is power to the coils regardless if the contacts closed. It may mean the contacts are closed and powered and for some reason the motor is not running.

I may be a PITA, but years of doing electrical troubleshooting has made me that way. I have learned to take nothing for granted.




I asked them.

Well then the GFCI in question needs built in voltage indicator/meters, L to N, L to G and N to G.

But that still leaves you sitting in your portable pool plugged into said receptacle but when it trips there is still voltage present whether it is indicated or not and you still are going to step out of that pool at some time unaware of that.