New Code suggestion on built-in microwaves

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jumper said:
What part of the wording was unclear?

All GP wall recs in the kitchen had to be on a SABC, unless it was for refrigeration which could be a 15A circuit now the exception allows more than just that equipment.

Rec in cabinets are not covered by 210.52 SABC rules, never were.
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Before and after the change all 210.52(A) and(C) outlets plus outlets for refrigeration had to be on SABC. Only thing this has clarified is that non 210.52(A) or (C) outlets can be on a 15 amp circuit. An outlet serving the counter with a microwave plugged into is is still a 210.52(C) outlet and must be on a 20 amp SABC.

How can one say an outlet no higher than 20" over the counter and not specifically separated from the general counter area in an effort to make a dedicated space for a specific appliance is actually a dedicated appliance receptacle? Next home occupant may think the microwave is better at a different location on the counter.
 
kwired said:
Before and after the change all 210.52(A) and(C) outlets plus outlets for refrigeration had to be on SABC. Only thing this has clarified is that non 210.52(A) or (C) outlets can be on a 15 amp circuit. An outlet serving the counter with a microwave plugged into is is still a 210.52(C) outlet and must be on a 20 amp SABC.

How can one say an outlet no higher than 20" over the counter and not specifically separated from the general counter area in an effort to make a dedicated space for a specific appliance is actually a dedicated appliance receptacle? Next home occupant may think the microwave is better at a different location on the counter.
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That outlet of the individual 15A circuit does not serve the countertop, it cannot be used as a substitute for a requirement in 210.52. It serves a dedicated piece of equipment that just happens to be located on the countertop.

Why are you going all “ what if”?
 
kwired said:
Before and after the change all 210.52(A) and(C) outlets plus outlets for refrigeration had to be on SABC. Only thing this has clarified is that non 210.52(A) or (C) outlets can be on a 15 amp circuit. An outlet serving the counter with a microwave plugged into is is still a 210.52(C) outlet and must be on a 20 amp SABC.
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I agree, the plugin micro can easily be moved just like any other appliance used on the countertop.
 
jumper said:
That outlet of the individual 15A circuit does not serve the countertop, it cannot be used as a substitute for a requirement in 210.52. It serves a dedicated piece of equipment that just happens to be located on the countertop.

Why are you going all “ what if”?
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I generally don't go with "what if" but this one I don't see as being a dedicated receptacle if there isn't some arrangement to make a dedicated space for said appliance. Open counter is fair game for any counter type appliance - and that is a big factor in creating the need for SABC's.

Otherwise we could run several outlets on 15 amp receptacles and call them dedicated to a toaster, can opener, air fryer, etc. Of what I just mentioned, only the can opener has a significantly different load characteristics than a microwave.
 
kwired said:
I generally don't go with "what if" but this one I don't see as being a dedicated receptacle if there isn't some arrangement to make a dedicated space for said appliance. Open counter is fair game for any counter type appliance - and that is a big factor in creating the need for SABC's.

Otherwise we could run several outlets on 15 amp receptacles and call them dedicated to a toaster, can opener, air fryer, etc. Of what I just mentioned, only the can opener has a significantly different load characteristics than a microwave.
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That would be an Appliance Branch Circuit, that would be a no no.

Individual Branch Circuits only serve one piece of equipment.

Not my fault if happy homeowner moves that equipment.

Once you have met all the spacing requirements of 210.52, the exception allows you to add individual 15A circuits for dedicated equipment.

Some would say that a simplex rec or a label is needed but I see no requirement for such.
 
jumper said:
That would be an Appliance Branch Circuit, that would be a no no.

Individual Branch Circuits only serve one piece of equipment.

Not my fault if happy homeowner moves that equipment.

Once you have met all the spacing requirements of 210.52, the exception allows you to add individual 15A circuits for dedicated equipment.

Some would say that a simplex rec or a label is needed but I see no requirement for such.
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Well now you opened up another "what if" they plug a non dedicate appliance into the dedicated receptacle circuit?:)

I'm not too worried about this rule effecting anything I do, but my opinion on what it means is what I have been stating. If someone wants a microwave on the counter and on a separate circuit - I run separate circuit to a duplex. Unless I make it clear it is supposed to be an individual branch circuit, it is just another SABC supplying a duplex above the counter. If it trips when they use a pizza oven the same time they are using the microwave - hopefully they learn one of them needs to plug into another receptacle, If not I guess I can install another circuit for a price.
 
Can we all agree that this is another poorly worded code section that might allow unintentional loopholes?

Playing devils advocate here, because I still believe all SABC receptacles on the countertop need to be 20 amp, I don't see a great danger if one of them happens to be a dedicated 15. If it's overloaded, the breaker will simply trip. But you won't be able to plug two 1000 watt appliances in to that receptacle.
 
kwired said:
Well now you opened up another "what if" they plug a non dedicate appliance into the dedicated receptacle circuit?:)

I'm not too worried about this rule effecting anything I do, but my opinion on what it means is what I have been stating. If someone wants a microwave on the counter and on a separate circuit - I run separate circuit to a duplex. Unless I make it clear it is supposed to be an individual branch circuit, it is just another SABC supplying a duplex above the counter. If it trips when they use a pizza oven the same time they are using the microwave - hopefully they learn one of them needs to plug into another receptacle, If not I guess I can install another circuit for a price.
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Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?
 
peter d said:
Can we all agree that this is another poorly worded code section that might allow unintentional loopholes?

Playing devils advocate here, because I still believe all SABC receptacles on the countertop need to be 20 amp, I don't see a great danger if one of them happens to be a dedicated 15. If it's overloaded, the breaker will simply trip. But you won't be able to plug two 1000 watt appliances in to that receptacle.
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Before this change I actually got into an argument with a HI about adding a individual circuit of a 120V 15A to an existing, up to code, circuit for a window AC in the dining room.

I said no.

I explained that it would be a SABC and had to be 20A. He argued fiercely, I won.

The new exception would allow it.
 
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jumper said:
Under the 2017, individual 15A circuits for a dedicated appliance can be installed in areas covered by the SABC rules. Does not have to be just refrigeration equipment anymore.

210.52( B)(1)

Old exception:

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an indi- vidual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.


New exception:

Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
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I find this and interesting and what I consider perhaps slacking requirement in the code. It used to be that basically all receptacles in the kitchen and other 210.52 mentioned areas had to be fed from the two small appliance Branch circuits, exceptions withstanding.

Now according to the 2017 as I am reading it for the first time, you may have individual branch circuit feeding a single receptacle in the kitchen in addition to the required small appliance Branch circuits.

I have absolutely no idea aside from something like a built-in microwave which already requires its own circuit, or the refrigerator cut out, which will be obvious, how one would determine Appliance needs on a countertop to install these 15 amp or greater branch circuits.

I do not see a problem with adding more branch circuits to a kitchen, regardless of amperage, however I think the code would have been better served just to simply mandate three or more 20 amp SABCs to serve receptacles covered by 210.52.

if I am building a higher-end kitchen, why would I even mess with 15 amp dedicated receptacles to equipment that does not exist? Even if the homeowner told me "hey I'm going to put a Fry Daddy here or a Keurig coffee pot there", it cost next to nothing more to go ahead and make those 20 amp circuits and be done with it.

As for countertop microwave versus built-in, one is more or less permanently mounted, one is not. to put it another way, if there is no built-in microwave, you do not have to wire for it. Honestly, it is not an NEC issue what the homeowner plugs into the code required small appliance branch circuits, that is a design issue, and the NEC is not a design manual.

Now, let's open up the debate on whether the 2017 NEC exception for single receptacle outlet means simplex receptacle.:lol:
 
There are things in a kitchen that don't need 20 amp circuits. Insta-hots, wine and beer coolers, small built in microwaves, disposals, warming drawers, under counter freezers and compactors all come to mind. But as JFletcher said, the location of those things is obvious and usually not on counter tops. :slaphead:
 
jumper said:
Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?
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Yes, unless the fridge needs its own.
 
peter d said:
There are things in a kitchen that don't need 20 amp circuits. Insta-hots, wine and beer coolers, small built in microwaves, disposals, warming drawers, under counter freezers and compactors all come to mind. But as JFletcher said, the location of those things is obvious and usually not on counter tops. :slaphead:
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If I were wiring a kitchen for all of those (and I have), I would definitely just include a third small appliance branch circuit rather than four or five extra 15 amp individual branch circuits. And I would conveniently ignore or forget any manufacturer requirement for a 2.9 amp wine cooler be on its own circuit.

NEC aside, anyone with that kind of kitchen is probably in the neighborhood of 750,000 plus here, probably 1.5 million in the Northeast and other areas... A few extra home runs and arc fault breakers are not going to financially kill the owners.

I see no problem with 15A individual branch circuits with a Simplex receptacle being added to a kitchen... As I mentioned earlier I often see lights jumped off the kitchen circuits, it would at least be safe if they jumped off of a 15 amp circuit than a 20. That is not a code problem so much as a remodeler problem, and giving them any more ammunition is not in our best interest.

also, I can imagine this will be a lot of fun with inspectors for several years to come if they see 14 gauge wire run to a box on the counter top. I suppose if there is only one cable in there, you won't get too much friction...

permit me a brief rant, at the rate we're going, it would not surprise me in the least if the 2029 NEC required every single receptacle in a kitchen to be on its own circuit.

And yes the way I read the exception in the 2017 code, the phrase "a receptacle outlet" rules out the use of duplex receptacles on additional 15 amp circuits to the kitchen... One would have to use a Simplex in my opinion.
 
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JFletcher said:
And yes the way I read the exception in the 2017 code, the phrase "a receptacle outlet" rules out the use of duplex receptacles on additional 15 amp circuits to the kitchen... One would have to use a Simplex in my opinion.
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I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.
 
LarryFine said:
I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.
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If we were talking hardwired only, I would agree with you.
For the article 100 definition of an outlet, an outlet is "a point on the wiring system which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". "A point", "a receptacle outlet" are both singular, and more to the point in the 2017 exception to 210.52, "a receptacle outlet' is singular.

Let me put it another way: if one were wiring under the 2017 NEC code, and put a duplex receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit in the kitchen, a kitchen which met all of the requirements for sabc's, would you gig this as an inspector? As an installer, if you were red tagged, how would you defend your installation?
 
JFletcher said:
If we were talking hardwired only, I would agree with you.
For the article 100 definition of an outlet, an outlet is "a point on the wiring system which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". "A point", "a receptacle outlet" are both singular, and more to the point in the 2017 exception to 210.52, "a receptacle outlet' is singular.

Let me put it another way: if one were wiring under the 2017 NEC code, and put a duplex receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit in the kitchen, a kitchen which met all of the requirements for sabc's, would you gig this as an inspector? As an installer, if you were red tagged, how would you defend your installation?
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According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
 
packersparky said:
According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Wow, that was from left field and took me by surprise. Gotta think about that viewpoint...
 
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