packersparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- Inspector
To be clear, I do not agree with JFletcher.
New Code suggestion on built-in microwaves
- Thread starter jeff48356
- Start date
- Status
To be clear, I do not agree with JFletcher.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Not a problem, no one said you have to. My view is different from your’s also, but we somewhat agree I think.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Yes. You must have at least 2 SABC's and at least two of them must serve the counter top receptacles. Makes it more difficult to meet the requirement in some extremely small apartments that have almost no counter, but a multiwire circuit to a single duplex does meet that requirement in those situations also.
I agree it would. Before you could run another SABC for an individual branch circuit, but now you can run same individual BC as a 15 amp circuit. You can't replace a 210.52(A) required receptacle with the individual BC though.
It does, see below.
Some are taking "a receptacle outlet" and saying a duplex is "a receptacle outlet", may or may not be, doesn't matter, keep reading past that wording....it says "supplied by an individual branch circuit" then look at art 100 definition for individual branch circuit, pretty certain it says something to the effect of "that supplies only utilization equipment". A duplex receptacle is capable of supplying more than one utilization equipment.
packersparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- Inspector
The definition does not say an individual branch circuit must only be capable of supplying one piece of utilization equipment.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
To me, a duplex receptacle is still singular, i.e., it's still only one outlet.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
No, but if you plug in two utilization equipment you are no longer supplying one. It does say it supplies only one utilization equipment. Most inspectors will not say it is an individual branch circuit if there is more than one receptacle outlet in the circuit. I will agree it is reading between the lines to some extent considering how it is worded.
Add: isn't a duplex receptacle on a two wire branch circuit considered a multioutlet circuit, and the reason you can put a 15 amp duplex as the only outlet device on a 20 amp branch circuit, but you can't put a 15 amp simplex as the only outlet device on a 20 amp circuit?
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Fair enough, but the 2017 exception to 210.52 goes on to state "to serve a specific appliance", which is also singular. I would go so far as to say that installing even a Simplex receptacle from a 15 amp individual branch circuit on a countertop for future use or expansion is a technical code violation since there is no specified appliance for it.
also as I read the exception, daisy chaining two Simplex receptacles together would also be a code violation since they are serving, or would serve, multiple appliances.
If you have a duplex receptacle, one half of it would be for that specified Appliance, what would the other half be for?
I want to emphasize that this debate or argument is largely academic to me, Virginia will not be on the 2017 NEC for many many years to come, nor would I be allowed under current code to run a 15 amp circuit to a kitchen for the receptacles, other than the refrigerator or built-in microwave.. if I am Incorrect, and I very well maybe, I would rather learn it here than in the field.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Not to argue, but to further counter this point, I believe one could install Simplex receptacles every 12 ft in rooms in a house and be code compliant... In this case the code is saying no more than 6 feet from a receptacle, it is not limiting how many receptacles can be there... Could be a Simplex, could be a duplex, you could have 4 duplex receptacles in a 4 Gang Box every 3 ft if you wanted.
The language in the 2017 exception 210.52 is different.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I agree with Fletcher here.
The "spacing" rule, ending in the "a receptacle outlet" is saying, at a minimum, there has to be a receptacle outlet within six feet of the receptacleS installed. There is no specified number attached to the plural "receptacles."
The example of a room with simplex receptacle outlets is a great example of the point.
Or, to say the point another way, the one receptacle outlet that counts as being within six feet could easily be in a multigang outlet box with, say, four duplex receptacles (eight total receptacle outlets).
P.S. Larry Fine, as you can read, I disagree with your take that a "box" is the outlet.
Adamjamma
Senior Member
- Location
- Jamaica and london
yes because you have two sabc circuits but... common sense says you should be trying to balance your circuits to balance your load.
Or wait a minute... Living room cannot be on the SABC can it? Dining room and pantry are in it...
But, all the what if questions are exactly the reason why originally the country of Jamaica put a limit on three outlets per SABC... what if a person was boiling a kettle and making toast? What if a person was using the microwave and a toaster oven? What if they were running a portable washing machine
They then went to special circuits for refrigeration and for larger appliances... but we are supposed to label each of those with a sticky label so you know what the circuit is for... Argument now is over whether labeling the inside of the box is good enough so you know which breaker it is, or if it must be labeled on the face plate.
Adamjamma
Senior Member
- Location
- Jamaica and london
I agree here that the outlet is what they will call for and not the device itself so if you used a 6 outlet device here it would still count... something like the outlet strip i saw in another post for under the upper cabinets... on its own circuit.
But, does that outlet strip count for the SABC count as it mounts to under the upper cabinets rather than being in the wall above the counter?
Adamjamma
Senior Member
- Location
- Jamaica and london
Lets say I used one of those four square 4 outlet single yoke devides... the inspector then tells me it is four separate outlets... It is one device that covers the power for four appliances possibly but... it is a single point in the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment and there is nothing in that definition to count the number of equipment that is being suppied or it would state supply one piece of utilization equipment.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
For load calculations in 220.14 that counts as four receptacles at 90 VA each. For a fixed multioutlet assembly (plugmold) it depends on expected loading could count 5 feet as one outlet @ 180VA or 1 foot as one outlet @ 180VA, regardless of how many receptacles actually are present. This all is for general use receptacles that are not intended for a specific load. If you have a specific intended load you must use the actual load for load calculations on the intended outlet. There still is no load limit per general use receptacle at dwellings for the sake of load calculations though.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I would counter that not all outlets are receptacle outlets; a lighting outlet, for example. The ceiling fixture is not the outlet, the opening through which we access the conductors is.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
The actual "outlet" point is sometimes not all that clear. A luminaire mounted on a box - the "outlet" is somewhere between the box and luminaire, exactly where possibly is still debatable. It is not the box, the box isn't a conductor, if it is metallic box it certainly isn't a conductor supplying the luminaire though it could be part of the EGC path.
A luminaire with the supply wiring method directly entering the luminaire - that point is within the luminaire, but exactly where within the luminaire may also be a little debatable. Is it the point of entry of supply conductors? Is it at the point where supply conductors connect to conductors that came with the luminaire? If you have a continuous end to end run of linear fixtures don't you have supply conductors and an outlet within in each luminaire?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Okay, the outlet is the volume of space contained within the box.
I'd say no, only the point of entrance of the first luminaire.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Isn't each individual luminaire an individual "utilization equipment"?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Yes, but only the first one receives power from the building electrical system; each one after that receives its power from the previous one.
Imaging several extension cords plugged in, one to another, to create a longer cord. Only the first one receives its power from the receptacle.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Herding cats is easier than keeping some thread on track...
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The Article 100 Definitions of both Receptacle Outlet and Lighting Outlet equate these two-word terms with the single-word term Outlet.
So the Article 100 Definition of Outlet is where we land, in both cases.
In my opinion the wiring system is defined in Article 100 as the Premises Wiring (System). The definition of Premises Wiring (System) specifies "wiring devices" as part of the wiring system.
The definition of Outlet requires us to find the "point" where the CURRENT is taken.
One cannot get current from a box or the volume in the box of a Receptacle Outlet. One CAN get current from the conductive contact mechanism in a Receptacle.
And here's the turn of perspective that is confused in this thread: The "contact device installed at an outlet" is talking about the Outlet point that current is taken which is the connection between the Utilization Equipment conductor and the conductor that is the contact device.
The Outlet is "right there" at the edge of the conductive contact device of the Receptacle. The Outlet is NOT back upstream into the wiring system. . . so it simply can't be the box, or the box volume.
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