New GFCI Tripping Problem

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growler said:
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They probably need to run for a certain amount of time and heat up before faulting. There has been a lot of moisture in the air lately. You could experiment by adding your own water to keep the motors running and see what happens. Or just check with the manufacturer to see if they have complaints about them tripping GFCIs.
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This is an excellent idea.
And keep in mind "its always an electrical problem"
 
Throwing random ideas

We know that the furnaces themselves are not GFCI protected.Could ignition current be the issue anyway? Somehow coupling through the drain line then the GFCI?

Is there a new rf source in the building, a radio system or people using walkie talkies?

Do you have a tool for logging leakage current as someone else suggested?

Jon
 
ELA said:
When a person has an issue with GFCIs I always recommend that the leakage current be measured.
That way you can gain an understanding of whether it is a completely transient condition - or if you are always leaking enough current to be on the edge of tripping all the time.
You can also then monitor when the machines are in different stages of their operation to better understand what the largest contributor to the leakage current might be.

I thought I recalled a requirement on some high efficiency units to have a good ground due to the fact that some current returned on the ground?
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Since each individual condensate pump is on an individual GFCI (I think) the leakage current that is important here is just that of each individual pump, and probably not likely that all would have the same problem at the same time.

The furnace needs a good ground for proper flame sensor operation, this does not involve current drawn from the supply circuit and will not have any impact on GFCI's.

What OP likely has is some inductive kickback issue or EMF interference of some sort and it doesn't even have to be coming from load side of the GFCI(s) in question.
 
More random thoughts:

Perhaps the tripping not due to loads, but source imbalance or circulating ground currents inducing current in the white wire.

GFCIs trip due to unequal current in the CT sensor. I
Thus, if there is an induced voltage on the white wires sufficient to drive 5 mA, that induced voltage can trip multiple GFCI on different circuits simultaneously. Loop voltages can trip GFCI even with no load applied.

I'd look for a ground loop or induced voltage problem, or see if the heating units are on the same thermostat such that turn on transients occur at the same time such that a current is developed on the white wire due to turn on surges.



etc..
 
winnie said:
............Do you have a tool for logging leakage current as someone else suggested?

Jon
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No. I do have a Fluke 289 and a amp loop, but I've never tried to detect very small currents with it, so I don't even know if it's possible with this pair. And it runs about a week on a set of batteries, so I'd have to go there every week to install new batteries. And it might take months to record an event. Even then, all I'd have is a date and time. I'd have no way of knowing what other events were occurring at that same time (furnace gets kicked on by 'stat, voltage spike/sag from utility, Elvis plugs in his FryDaddy....)
 
Just throwing another thought...............is it possible GFCI do not like a compromised service neutral?
 
mopowr steve said:
Just throwing another thought...............is it possible GFCI do not like a compromised service neutral?
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Not too likely. Seen P&S GFCI receptacle (typical 120 volt 5-15 GFCI receptacle) that was hooked to 240 volts intentionally by someone that didn't know any better. Believe it or not, after several weeks being hooked up that way it still worked.

If the compromised neutral is causing inductive kickback - maybe a better chance of causing tripping.
 
48sparky or the OP,

May I know what is the exact brand and model of GFCI outlet you used (or is it GFCI breaker)?

Some have hidden defects in that even if the ac input is made to the load side with the input side open. It would still trip. The problem is the sense coil (which gar suspected may be capacitive coupling. He would look into my samples sent to him when he got well). You can easily test this by putting the AC input to the load side. If it would still trip. Then the sense coil is the problem. If not. Then it's some unconventional leakage in your machine.

If the sense coil is the problem. If you have some machines nearby that can disturb the lines sides, it can really trip all GFCI outlets. You can put LC filter or surge protectors and this would filter the transients by transferring the energy from the peak to make it wider and flatter (not entirely flat because energy can't be destroyed).

I think NEC must ban all GFCI outlets with this defect. Because it can get people the habit of thinking their tripping GFCI is due to "accepted nuisance tripping" and not true current leakage.

Also try to install the Siemens 2-pole GFCI breaker as this is resistance to all kinds of nuisance tripping that my GFCI outlets can easily trip (at will).

With the Siemens GFCI breakers. If it still trips, then you are sure it is some leakage current and not others. In my case, the only 2 times it tripped was when there was contact between wire and concrete leaking more than 5mA of current. While the GFCI outlets trip like crazy in fridge, even cell charging, fans, orange squeeze machine, etc. NEC and worldwide agencies should ban all these.
 
tersh said:
48sparky or the OP,

May I know what is the exact brand and model of GFCI outlet you used (or is it GFCI breaker)?

Some have hidden defects in that even if the ac input is made to the load side with the input side open. It would still trip.
Click to expand...

Unless you are describing something other than what I am thinking of - that is intentional and a listing requirement in more recent years. It prevents miswiring the input leads to the load side terminals, which without this feature would still leave the receptacle live even when the device is tripped.
 
kwired said:
Unless you are describing something other than what I am thinking of - that is intentional and a listing requirement in more recent years. It prevents miswiring the input leads to the load side terminals, which without this feature would still leave the receptacle live even when the device is tripped.
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What feature is that? In the Meiji GFCI outlets i tested at length early this year guided by veteran electrical engineer gar. Even if you changed the AC input to the load side. The outlet still trips not from current balance in the sense coil but capacitive coupling of some kind in the sense coil that disturbs the circuits , yet the power is not disconnected because the appliance is sharing the load side parallel to the ac input so it's still powered on, but the gfci outlet relays or contacts open already and power lost to it as soon as it tripped.
 
tersh said:
What feature is that? In the Meiji GFCI outlets i tested at length early this year guided by veteran electrical engineer gar. Even if you changed the AC input to the load side. The outlet still trips not from current balance in the sense coil but capacitive coupling of some kind in the sense coil that disturbs the circuits , yet the power is not disconnected because the appliance is sharing the load side parallel to the ac input so it's still powered on, but the gfci outlet relays or contacts open already and power lost to it as soon as it tripped.
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Miswired GFCIs would function as you describe, in the past. Newer models will not set if miswired. I’ve never tested them to prove it one way or the other.
 
ptonsparky said:
Miswired GFCIs would function as you describe, in the past. Newer models will not set if miswired. I’ve never tested them to prove it one way or the other.
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If you have the circuit diagram how the newer circuits work where even if you put the ac power at load side, and it can detect it and still channel it to the sense coil. Please share the diagram at https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=195680&page=21 so as not to disturb the flow of this thread about the OP problems with his machines.

I was asking what brand and model is the OP GFCI (whether it's outlet or breaker) because I'm curious if only Leviton gfci outlets have nuisance tripping issues or all brands have this issue and whether it's actual leakage or capacitive coupling in the sense coil disturbing the circuits.
 
tersh said:
If you have the circuit diagram how the newer circuits work where even if you put the ac power at load side, and it can detect it and still channel it to the sense coil. Please share the diagram at https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=195680&page=21 so as not to disturb the flow of this thread about the OP problems with his machines.

I was asking what brand and model is the OP GFCI (whether it's outlet or breaker) because I'm curious if only Leviton gfci outlets have nuisance tripping issues or all brands have this issue and whether it's actual leakage or capacitive coupling in the sense coil disturbing the circuits.
Click to expand...
I do not have the new diagrams.
 
tersh said:
If you have the circuit diagram how the newer circuits work where even if you put the ac power at load side, and it can detect it and still channel it to the sense coil. Please share the diagram at https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=195680&page=21 so as not to disturb the flow of this thread about the OP problems with his machines.

I was asking what brand and model is the OP GFCI (whether it's outlet or breaker) because I'm curious if only Leviton gfci outlets have nuisance tripping issues or all brands have this issue and whether it's actual leakage or capacitive coupling in the sense coil disturbing the circuits.
Click to expand...
Capacitive coupling will lead to leakage current. Leakage current on the protected side of the device is expected to trip the device if it gets higher then the 4-6 mA trip threshold. Leakage on the supply side of the device shouldn't matter to the device, unless maybe it leaks onto the protected circuit somehow.
 
480sparky said:
So the pumps can snub nuisance ground faults?
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There is a huge thread started by tersh about GFCI tripping caused by small motor loads where there was no possible ground fault. Eg a small motor fed by two wires sitting on a glass sheet.

It got so long I stopped following the details but it seems that adding a snubber to the motor would correct what is by definition nuisance tripping.

Jon
 
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