New GFCI Tripping Problem

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winnie said:
There is a huge thread started by tersh about GFCI tripping caused by small motor loads where there was no possible ground fault. Eg a small motor fed by two wires sitting on a glass sheet.

It got so long I stopped following the details but it seems that adding a snubber to the motor would correct what is by definition nuisance tripping.

Jon
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Golly gee. I suggested/did that about ten years ago when I solved the problem with a bath fan that was tripping a GFCI on a totally unrelated circuit. Guess it’s not a solution until an EE says it is. Oh well.
 
ptonsparky said:
Golly gee. I suggested/did that about ten years ago when I solved the problem with a bath fan that was tripping a GFCI on a totally unrelated circuit. Guess it’s not a solution until an EE says it is. Oh well.
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With as many as are being found tripped at same time it could still be something on line side of GFCI's, and even on an unrelated circuit, that is causing this issue.
 
ptonsparky said:
I was lucky with only one tripping. I knew Who, What, When and eventually Why.
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Back when we had those ice storms in 2005 and 2006 and I was running a portable generator and powering the entire service with it, I heard it sputtering and knew it was about to run out of gas. Some point near the end of of final slowing down, I heard "click" sounds throughout the house - Pretty much every GFCI receptacle in the house tripped, presumably when the field collapsed on the generator. Inductive kickback trip issues can come from anywhere, not just the load side of the GFCI.
 
480sparky said:
Especially when the 2 / 3 units that are twinned trip at the same time.
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kwired said:
With as many as are being found tripped at same time it could still be something on line side of GFCI's, and even on an unrelated circuit, that is causing this issue.
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Sure it could be something on the line side that is causing the GFCI receptacles to trip.

But it's going to be hard to justify all the time needed to track that kind of a problem down until the possibility is eliminated that there really is a load side ground fault.

I don't know about 480sparky but I'm never lucky enough to be there when things actually trip so I end up having to take the word of other people and that's not always accurate.
 
growler said:
Sure it could be something on the line side that is causing the GFCI receptacles to trip.

But it's going to be hard to justify all the time needed to track that kind of a problem down until the possibility is eliminated that there really is a load side ground fault.

I don't know about 480sparky but I'm never lucky enough to be there when things actually trip so I end up having to take the word of other people and that's not always accurate.
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I don't disagree with what you are saying, especially when it comes to taking the word of the non qualified, they aren't necessarily trying to deceive you they usually are just trying to explain what they think they are seeing and don't normally know what additional details that may seem unimportant to them are actually key things to pay attention to.

But at same time red flags go up when there is multiple GFCI's tripped that it may be something other than the protected equipment being the main cause of the trouble.

If only thing being protected is the condensate pumps - one can meg those and determine there is no ground faults in them just as a formality to eliminate that direction of troubleshooting. Still a fault in just one unit shouldn't cause the others to trip, they likely each cycle at random times, if they all cycled simultaneously I could see more kickback issues that is related to the load itself. The other possibility here is they all have kickback but individually affect their own GFCI protection, and over time eventually they all end up tripped.
 
kwired said:
If only thing being protected is the condensate pumps - one can meg those and determine there is no ground faults in them just as a formality to eliminate that direction of troubleshooting. Still a fault in just one unit shouldn't cause the others to trip, they likely each cycle at random times, if they all cycled simultaneously I could see more kickback issues that is related to the load itself. The other possibility here is they all have kickback but individually affect their own GFCI protection, and over time eventually they all end up tripped.
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That's what get's me. They say all the GFCIs trip at once but then they say they notice they are tripped be because the area is getting colder and shutting of heating unit.

If I was actually standing there when they all tripped at once that would be different. But it sounds more like they may have tripped over say a 24 hour time period.

Maybe they trip when there is enough moisture for the float switch to started the pump motor and it runs for a certain amount of time.

I think we all look at this pretty much the same way. The only problem is, I can't think of a way to eliminate all of the possible line side causes (if that is the problem). I can think of a way to run the motor or motors for a period of time to eliminate them as the possible cause.
 
growler said:
That's what get's me. They say all the GFCIs trip at once but then they say they notice they are tripped be because the area is getting colder and shutting of heating unit.

If I was actually standing there when they all tripped at once that would be different. But it sounds more like they may have tripped over say a 24 hour time period.

Maybe they trip when there is enough moisture for the float switch to started the pump motor and it runs for a certain amount of time.

I think we all look at this pretty much the same way. The only problem is, I can't think of a way to eliminate all of the possible line side causes (if that is the problem). I can think of a way to run the motor or motors for a period of time to eliminate them as the possible cause.
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if there is a ground fault, it will likely be pretty "repeatable" issue, if it is inductive kickback issue, it may be somewhat random - doesn't happen every time.

And yes if it is kickback/interference we don't know without seeing it happen whether it is all of them tripping at same time or just randomly tripping at various times but still in a short duration like overnight, over a couple days....

Simple mechanical wall clocks plugged into the protected outlets may be an easy way to determine if they are all tripping together or at various times.

Add: though plug in mechanical clocks are kind of becoming extinct
 
winnie said:
There is a huge thread started by tersh about GFCI tripping caused by small motor loads where there was no possible ground fault. Eg a small motor fed by two wires sitting on a glass sheet.It got so long I stopped following the details but it seems that adding a snubber to the motor would correct what is by definition nuisance tripping.Jon
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The motor sample and gfci is already with gar who is a veteran electrical engineer. He will analyze the exact cause of it. Then when the mechanism of nuisance tripping is exactly pinpointed. It will be shared to all other electrical engineers. This is because whenever I asked other electrical engineers. They don't believe the nuisance tripping is caused by capacitive coupling. They simply believe inductive kickback can somehow produce current imbalance without going into the details. So when we know exactly how inductive kickback can mess up the GFCI circuit and this is true for US GFCI outlets. Then the report will to be shown to all engineers & users & IEEE, so they can demand the manufacturer to recall all GFCI products with this nuisance tripping defect or making sure they will never manufacturer others like it.

I'm saying this because my Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers never tripped at all. Remember I bought an expensive medical grade isolation transformer just to power the refs because they kept tripping on the Meiji outlets. Well. They never tripped on the Siemens not even once and my isolation transformer is just kept in the box getting dusts. So all GFCI outlets and breakers must be designed like the Siemens. All else must be banned. We can't consider them as simply tolerances. This is to avoid users thinking the tripping is caused mostly by nuisance tripping that they miss real leakage current and this is very dangerous.

So we must convince the Attorney General for class action suit against GFCI manufacturers with nuisang tripping products. All of this can only happen when we know the exact mechanism. That's what gar will hopefully do. So next time he posts there. It's official report and key to start an uprising to bring down low quality gfci manufacturers and in its place only a future without any nuisance tripping by any GFCI product. This is the long term goal.

Crazy? Lol.
 
tersh said:
The motor sample and gfci is already with gar who is a veteran electrical engineer. He will analyze the exact cause of it. Then when the mechanism of nuisance tripping is exactly pinpointed. It will be shared to all other electrical engineers. This is because whenever I asked other electrical engineers. They don't believe the nuisance tripping is caused by capacitive coupling. They simply believe inductive kickback can somehow produce current imbalance without going into the details. So when we know exactly how inductive kickback can mess up the GFCI circuit and this is true for US GFCI outlets. Then the report will to be shown to all engineers & users & IEEE, so they can demand the manufacturer to recall all GFCI products with this nuisance tripping defect or making sure they will never manufacturer others like it.

I'm saying this because my Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers never tripped at all. Remember I bought an expensive medical grade isolation transformer just to power the refs because they kept tripping on the Meiji outlets. Well. They never tripped on the Siemens not even once and my isolation transformer is just kept in the box getting dusts. So all GFCI outlets and breakers must be designed like the Siemens. All else must be banned. We can't consider them as simply tolerances. This is to avoid users thinking the tripping is caused mostly by nuisance tripping that they miss real leakage current and this is very dangerous.

So we must convince the Attorney General for class action suit against GFCI manufacturers with nuisang tripping products. All of this can only happen when we know the exact mechanism. That's what gar will hopefully do. So next time he posts there. It's official report and key to start an uprising to bring down low quality gfci manufacturers and in its place only a future without any nuisance tripping by any GFCI product. This is the long term goal.

Crazy? Lol.
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Most of us will probably sit out the revolution, having had very few GFCI nuisance trip problems in the current century.
 
readydave8 said:
Most of us will probably sit out the revolution, having had very few GFCI nuisance trip problems in the current century.
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Key is to eliminate the remaining 15% of GFCI products that can nuisance trip and make all GFCI resistant to inductive kickback nuisance tripping. My Meiji GFCI outlets can trip on the following:

1. phone chargers
2. orange juice squeezer machine​
3. rice cooker​
4. refrigerators​
5. Dental spray
6. some others​


The Siemens 2-pole breakers never trip on any of them. The only time the Siemens tripped were actual leaked current (like wire to concrete short).

I could have eliminated the 8 Meiji GFCI outlets. But I need them as backup in case the breakers fail. But there are no other 240v gfci outlets in the world. So I want to push for their elimination and in its place only superior gfci outlets that never nuisance trip. This is also why I'm asking the OP what are the brands of gfci outlets he installed so we know if it's only Leviton related products (or clones) that have the problem (that is if the reasons for his simultaneous trippings is not caused by actual leakage current). Can the OP answer this pls? Thanks.
 
hbiss said:
It's a simple R-C snubber. Apparently Rexel has it wrong.

https://www.rke.com/rcs-single-phase-120vac-240vac

https://www.rke.com/transient-voltage-filters

-Hal
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From the first link:

Operation

Transient Voltage Filters


R-C networks (Resistance-Capacitance) are applied to circuits where transient electrical voltages can cause a malfunction or damage in solid state controls or control systems (PLCs, CNCs, NCs, Solid State Counters, etc.) The RCSs are typically applied in parallel with single phase inductive loads (motor starter coils, contactor coils, solenoid valves, etc.) to absorb the transients generated when the load is de-energized.
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Other than they didn't use the term "snubber" what do they have wrong?
 
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