mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
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- Technician
The breaker stops tripping. Customer is happy.
No harm will come. And I doubt anyone will care.
New refrigerator trips AFCI
- Thread starter Mdsparky
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The breaker stops tripping. Customer is happy.
No harm will come. And I doubt anyone will care.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
Except those exact claims are made by UL:
Which was further vindicated by the CMPs when 210.12 A 4 was voted affirmative.
If one chooses to ignore three decades of manufacturers, CMP members, NEMA, IEC, CPSC, UL, and other major players discussing the magnetic pickup of circuit breakers in relation to arc mitigation to the point magnetic pickup of all single pole breakers was lowered from by a factor of 20.
When it was realized that lowering this threshold to 75 amps would result in nuisance tripping only then was an electronic solution created, instead of a simpler solution discussed of adding a table to the code restricting how far #14, #12 and #10 could be run.
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LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Make them re-settable via the app and I'll really be impressed.
Beach house?
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
Yawn right back at you guy
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
This would matter how exactly?
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
It doesn’t. Kind of like most of this thread.
Do let us know what you figure out.
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
We had issues on a few jobs with Sub Zero tripping AFCI breakers. The jobs were all SquareD so not sure if they were triggering the AF protection or GF protection circuit. All customers called Sub Zero support the same day were told its a know wiring issue in a number of appliances during manufacturing. They sent repair service out the following day who were able to resolve the issues. I have no idea what the actual issues were but was impressed with the quick resolution.
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
It ran fine on GFCI only for 48 hours .. it is a brand new Bosch. I will get you all the model number ASAP , as if it matters . The distance from panel to receptacle is about 30 ' tops . There are multiple kitchen counter circuits all the home runs are similar lengths. There are two different circuits adjacent to the circuit the refrigerator is on .. he plugged it into both of them and it tripped those two plus the original that has no other outlet presently. That's 3 dual function breakers tripping all new all with only one item utilizing electricity. I may have screwed up one circuit's termination but I refuse to believe I screwed three of them up . He plugged it back into the original circuit and he said it ran for an hour then tripped . I'm sorry I have no photos or that this is just some sort of run of the mill issue ... I guess my point is this should not be an issue nor should the proximity to an ocean or the wealth of the homeowner or quite frankly , the brand of the refrigerator come into play. It is obvious this technology is problematic.
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
Will do .
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
Just curious, how much did that cost or would that have cost if all the time was billed ?
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
mbrook, does UL homework effort you shared involve UL 1699 arc fault testing?
I doubt short circuit functions of Standard breakers can meet U.S. – UL 1699, the Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupters
If anyone published such test results, withholding a UL 1699 Certificate would be unlikely, and AHJ's would be forced to accept it during inspected installations.
Unfortunately you are facing a all to common dilemma with no clear-cut answer. From a liability standpoint you can't revert to a standard breaker (despite mbrooke's smoke and mirrors) and your problem is magnified by the distance from the job. At this point I would think the next step would be (a) a new breaker; (b) plug the appliance into another AFCI circuit and if it trips it will help your case that's it the appliance, not the wiring; (c) contact Siemens with all the data.
When it is resolved, please report back.
When it is resolved, please report back.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
See post #21. UL openly confirms in their test reports that magnetic pickup meets UL1699.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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- Technician
210.12 A 5 may legally allow you to do so.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
No it doesn’t.
Mdsparky
Member
- Location
- massachusetts
- Occupation
- electrician
So four brand new AFCI breakers need to trip? Every 120 outlet in a dwelling in Massachusetts requires AFCI. I think three separate brand new breakers tripping eliminates the run of the mill "try another breaker " approach.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
I underlined UL1699 for clarity.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
You can underline what you want, it doesn’t say what you think. This is simply giving you maximum lengths so you can trip on instantaneous.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
125% over instantaneous- peak arc impedance limits current to 80% of the available bolted fault current.
Once this met, parellel arcing is detected and mitigated.
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