NFPA 70 + NFPA 13 conflict

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dnem said:
You might have the right answer here. . That might be the correct interaction between these sections of NFPA 70 + 13. . But that throws me right into an electrode vs general bonding conversation with a fire marshall. . I honestly doubt he understands the difference and I don't know if he's open to learn anything from an electrical inspector.
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Good luck with that. That will be an interesting discussion. :smile:
 
OK Dnem I will rephrase the isolated to a specific use system..the thing is there is no water present in the pipe until a sprinkler head melts..so what ever you call it I still do not believe it needs bonding..We do not bond them and have never been ask to bond them..so if you are looking for a means of justification I can not help as I am on the do not bond side..

Edited it is not a potable water system and it does not meet the requirments of 250.4 (A) (4)..it is not likely to become energized..
 
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cschmid said:
OK Dnem I will rephrase the isolated to a specific use system..the thing is there is no water present in the pipe until a sprinkler head melts..so what ever you call it I still do not believe it needs bonding..We do not bond them and have never been ask to bond them..so if you are looking for a means of justification I can not help as I am on the do not bond side..
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There is a room set aside just for the sprinkler main and its various valves and controls. . This room is required to be heated. . Why is it required to be heated if there's no water in the lines ?

I've talked to people that have hit heads on the sprinkler system. . There's no delay before the deluge starts. . I doubt very strongly that these lines are air filled. . That's usually done on a special system, one with environmental freezing risks or other special considerations.

And even to take this one step farther, I don't agree that pipes that are air filled when in their static condition are exempt from the bonding requirements of 250.52(A)(1) or 250.104 [if not 10' earth contact].
 
dnem said:
There is a room set aside just for the sprinkler main and its various valves and controls. . This room is required to be heated. . Why is it required to be heated if there's no water in the lines ?

I've talked to people that have hit heads on the sprinkler system. . There's no delay before the deluge starts. . I doubt very strongly that these lines are air filled. . That's usually done on a special system, one with environmental freezing risks or other special considerations.

And even to take this one step farther, I don't agree that pipes that are air filled when in their static condition are exempt from the bonding requirements of 250.52(A)(1) or 250.104 [if not 10' earth contact].
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I am from MN we are in the enviromental areas of reezeing risk..I appologize for not clarifying that..
 
I found this ,..it might be worth reading ,..though not a formal interpretation ,.. I'd bet they would follow his lead ,

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A 6-inch sprinkler main would be a good electrode, but Section 8-3.5 of NFPA 24 prohibits using it as such. Sprinkler systems with a dielectric isolator in the main sprinkler supply wouldn't satisfy the requirements for a grounding electrode, either, although the AEC doesn't prohibit bonding the interior piping to the electrical system. Section 250-104(C) of the NEC requires that piping that may become energized be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode system.



In electric fire pump installations, the equipment grounding conductor is a wire or metal raceway. The metal sprinkler piping is connected to the pump's metal case, which is bolted to the electric motor so that the sprinkler piping is in electrical contact with the grounding system. Installing a bonding jumper between the electrical grounding system and the sprinkler piping only allows the connection to decrease the voltage differential under a ground-fault condition, making it safer.
The intentional bonding of all the utilities in a building creates an equipotential ground plane that minimizes the voltage differential between the different systems under both normal and abnormal operating conditions. The result is an environment safer from the hazards of electrocution and fire.

John M. Caloggero, is NFPA's principal electrical specialist. This article is his personal opinion, not a Formal Interpretation, since it hasn't been processed in accordance with Chapter V of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects.
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nakulak said:
we try to get the fire marshal and the bldg official on site at the same time, then at the right time, someone starts chanting "fight !, fight !, fight !" until they duke it out to decide who should prevail. Afterwards, we all have a beer and a good laugh.
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Who pays for the beer ?

I'm not fightin' unless someone else is buyin' !
 
DanZ said:
I'll give you the first sentence of NFPA 13 10.6.8 "Under no case shall the underground piping be used as a grounding electrode for electrical systems".
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Ah Hah !!

One more clue.

Our cheap building department only owns the '02 version which says, "In no case shall pipe specified in 10.6.7 be used for grounding of electrical services." . There's no mention of electrode in the '02 edition which makes a electrode vs general bonding conversation very difficult.
 
David this was posted by Bryan Holland a while back

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=79103


For example, section 10.6.8 of the NFPA 13 and 24 will read as follows:
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10.6.8 In no case shall pipe specified in 10.6.7 be used for grounding of electrical services. This does not preclude the bonding of the underground piping to the lightning protection grounding system as required by the NFPA 780 in those cases where lightning protection is provided for the structure.

A.10.6.8 Where lightning protection is provided for a structure, NFPA 780, 4.14 requires that all grounding media including underground metallic piping systems be interconnected to provide a common ground potential. These underground piping systems are not permitted to be substituted for grounding electrodes but must be bonded to the lightning protection system.

Where galvanic corrosion is of concern, this bind may be made via a spark gap or gas discharge tube.
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dnem said:
is it bonded to the steel thru the red paint coating on the sprinkler pipe ?
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Interesting I've never seen sprinkler pipe that is painted. Yes I would still consider it bonded due to the many contacts one system makes through out a building.


I still believe you are right that the pipe is not being used as an electrode and therefore can be bonded.

Good luck in the fight. I'm rooting for you.
 
I've always wondered how one instructs a non-isolated bonded sprinkler piping system to not behave as a grounding electrode?
 
LarryFine said:
I've always wondered how one instructs a non-isolated bonded sprinkler piping system to not behave as a grounding electrode?
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:grin:

Isn't it all about intention?




:rolleyes:
 
dnem said:
There is a room set aside just for the sprinkler main and its various valves and controls.
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So, the controls are supplied by a branch circuit? Then the pipe would have to be bonded to the branch circuit's egc.
 
Nothing is to be attached to sprinkler pipes(except, water flow switch,os&y tamper switch,hi-low pressure switch.Not all sprinklers have water in them.Some are filled with compress air (dry systems) for area's open to cold air. Others have anti freeze in them.some are feed from water holding tanks on upper floors.some pipes have gaskets in line of the pipe run and you would not have continuity through the entire length of the system. Also there is not to be any wiring run through the hangers or tie wrap to the hanger rods.
Grounding to cold water pipe is the way to go and leave the sprinkler alone
 
I never really paid any attentin to whether or not sprinker pipes even conducted from pipe to pipe through vic fittings ?

I've often been required to ground the sprinkler at the stub out where the 1st OS&Y is, and just did it to get my inspection .
 
SmithBuilt said:
Interesting I've never seen sprinkler pipe that is painted. Yes I would still consider it bonded due to the many contacts one system makes through out a building.
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Ive been told all Air National Guard hangers require the sprinkler pipe to be painted red. Ive only seen 2 personally but the fitter who told me works nationwide.
 
I've seen it both ways many time.The electrical inspector shows up first and see's the cold water ground and sprinkler ground or bond and says ok and the next day the sprinkler inspector shows up and says take it off. we cannot assume that all sprinklers are tied directly in to city water main.
 
even if you bond the sprinkler piping, do the sprinkler fittings effectively bond the sections of pipe?
 
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