Nitrogen Purging of Conductors

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iwire said:
I don't think those reading suggest a slight leakage of the insulation in general but a compromised insulation.
Agreed, due to a sharp difference compared to the rest. The biggest problem to me is that the resistance is likely to decrease over time, if left in place, until failure occurs.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Zog,
Would you expect a conductor with water under the insulation to have a lower insulation resistance reading than the same conductor that only has water on the exterior surface of the insulation? If so why?
As a testing engineer, if you had this cable that tested bad with water in it and then it tested good after you dryed it out, would you accept it? I would not. I can see no way that the water inside (short time) will change the insulation resistance any more than water on the outside.

1st question, no, the resistance may decrease over time (Years maybe) but water inside the insulation should not effect the IR values today.

2nd question, yes I would, after a purge and good tan delta test.
 
iwire said:
I will add this, the conduit is flooded, it was installed below the water table, it was flooded from day one and will remain flooded indefinitely.

There are five conductors in each raceway, the conductors that test good have readings above 500 mega ohms, the ones that test bad are below one (1) mega ohm.

I don't think those reading suggest a slight leakage of the insulation in general but a compromised insulation.

OK now we have some values to deal with. Obviously 1M is below any spec out there for any power cable. I thought we were talking about a new cable prior to install, in service like that is a different story, that cable needs to be replaced, you can try the purge but I dont think the water is the reason, the insulation is bad wet or dry, just replace the cable, there really isnt any other choice at this point.
 
zog said:
1st question, no, the resistance may decrease over time (Years maybe) but water inside the insulation should not effect the IR values today.

2nd question, yes I would, after a purge and good tan delta test.
I don't understant how the answer to the second question can be yes, based on the answer to the first.
 
zog said:
I thought we were talking about a new cable prior to install, in service like that is a different story, that cable needs to be replaced,

It is a new cable, it has never been energized other then the mega testing.
 
drbond24 said:
So you are not only saying that water isn't a problem, you're saying water is REQUIRED to megger the insulation?
Yes I am saying that....if you have no water or other conductive contaminates around the conductor and you megger it, it can test good even with physical bare spots. In this case you would be measuring the insulation resistance of air, which is high. (about 3kV per mm)
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes I am saying that....if you have no water or other conductive contaminates around the conductor and you megger it, it can test good even with physical bare spots. In this case you would be measuring the insulation resistance of air, which is high. (about 3kV per mm)

Right, thats why a megger test dosent tell you that much. PD testing is ideal for finding those voids.
 
zog said:
Right, thats why a megger test dosent tell you that much. PD testing is ideal for finding those voids.
It is my understanding that the testing used in this thread was a megger. My point is exactly what you said....a good megger reading does not mean that the cable is good. On the other hand a poor megger reading is almost always indicative of a real problem with the installation, assuming the megger testing was done correctly.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
It is my understanding that the testing used in this thread was a megger. My point is exactly what you said....a good megger reading does not mean that the cable is good. On the other hand a poor megger reading is almost always indicative of a real problem with the installation, assuming the megger testing was done correctly.

Well put, this thread has gone back and forth from LV to MV cable and different testing methods. The OP was LV cable and a Megger test.
 
zog said:
Well put, this thread has gone back and forth from LV to MV cable and different testing methods.

The only person that brought up other testing methods was you.

The only person that brought MV cable into it was you. (Once you did I did ask a specific question about it) :grin:

So back to the basic question.

If the cable megs bad wet, then is purged, they tests OK would you accept that cable?
 
winnie said:
My thoughts on this (and I am guessing here):

No insulation is perfect. There is always _some_ current leakage through the insulation, and thus a finite resistance.

In use, a small amount of current leakage must be tolerated between an energized conductor and its surroundings.

The quality of modern insulating plastics is so high that the leakage expected is far, far lower than one could actually tolerate.

The result that a resistance test which indicates what would be and _acceptable_ level of leakage (if evenly distributed) is _taken to mean_ that there is a defect in the insulation. The conductor might function just fine with 1 megohm resistance to surrounding material per 1000 feet of conductor...but insulating plastic is so good that if you saw a resistance so low (1 megohm per 1000 feet) you would rightly conclude that there is a hole or other defect in the insulation.

Because there is always going to be a small amount of current leakage, your insulation resistance test has to have some standard for the minimum permissible resistance.

It seems plausible to me that insulation would have _different_ current leakage values wet versus dry. Wet the insulation might cause enough leakage to _fail_ the test...but be good enough insulation to function acceptably. In this case, you might have insulation with no defect at all, and which would function acceptably when wet, but it would fail the insulation resistance test because of water.

On the other side of the coil, dry air is a rather good insulator. If you have an insulated conductor with holes in it, and the holes don't bring the conductor into contact with surrounding conductive material, then that hole would not cause a low resistance reading. This argues that if you actually want to detect holes in the insulation, you actually need to surround the insulation with a conductive medium, and perform your resistance test between the conductor and the 'conductive medium', eg. water.

-Jon

I might be running the wrong direction with this, thought I'd try anyway... (Just learning) It would be interesting to run an additional comparative test with some "treed" faulty cable using air, like a pressurized plumbing test. - i.e. pressure lost within a given period of time would most likely indicate that the insulation is indeed compromised, would it not? . . .
 
iwire said:
So back to the basic question.

If the cable megs bad wet, then is purged, they tests OK would you accept that cable?
I would only if it tests good again after a week or, better yet, a month. What was the time lapse between the initial installation and the testing?

It's still possible that the bad conductor was damaged before or during installation. A single nick in the insulation would affect the test results.
 
iwire said:
The only person that brought up other testing methods was you.

The only person that brought MV cable into it was you. (Once you did I did ask a specific question about it) :grin:

So back to the basic question.

If the cable megs bad wet, then is purged, they tests OK would you accept that cable?

Yes, but it wont test OK, you will never get it >100M @1000V
 
LarryFine said:
It's still possible that the bad conductor was damaged before or during installation. A single nick in the insulation would affect the test results.

Well.....yeah! :grin:

I have little doubt that is the problem, I don't think the water is the issue.
 
iwire said:
OK, this is just starting to be silly, it's like a dog chasing it's tail.

Ok, you have a bad cable, it is not because of the water, it is because the insulation has been damaged, or a termination has failed, removing the water by any means may increase your IR readings but not to >100M @ 1000V. You are going to replace this cable. What caused it to fail or whos is to blame is a whole different discussion we maybe should discuss in a different thread to avoid confusion.
 
The actual megger numbers have definately changed the dynamic of this discussion. It would be interesting to see if the conductor was purged what the new megger reading would be. I would agree with others that the reading will be better but nowhere near 500 megaohms. And that indicates compromised insulation.
 
wirenut1980 said:
The actual megger numbers have definately changed the dynamic of this discussion. It would be interesting to see if the conductor was purged what the new megger reading would be. I would agree with others that the reading will be better but nowhere near 500 megaohms. And that indicates compromised insulation.
Depending on how the defect in the insulation was oriented, and how well the inside of the pipe also dried out, I might guess you could possibly get darned near perfect megger readings for a bit. Given that the pipe is flooded, however, I don't hold much hope for much improvement.
 
mdshunk said:
Depending on how the defect in the insulation was oriented, and how well the inside of the pipe also dried out, I might guess you could possibly get darned near perfect megger readings for a bit. Given that the pipe is flooded, however, I don't hold much hope for much improvement.

What is a perfect megger reading?
 
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