No alox

[quogueelectric]

No alox is an oxide inhibitor. Aluminum is a good conductor aluminum oxide is not the No alox is supposed to prevent oxygen from contacting the aluminum that is why you are supposed to put it on before it is brushed because it keeps oxygen from combining with the alluminum to form a poor conductor. I have seen idiot after idiot putting the product on after the connection had been made and this is why aluminum had so many fires is because of untrained monkeys installing it.

You really should do some more research there Mr cow.

This is a cut and paste from the previous no alox thread which was closed. This was a link brought up which substantiates everything I suggested just before the thread was closed. I will have to post the link in the next post.

 

[quogueelectric]

Follow the link it will outline the exact method I described. It is not a tyco add as it tells how tyco products may not be available in the future and it also specs king industries allumicon connector which is a direct competitor.

Check this site for references which support QuoQueelectric:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

I have tried experiments similar to these, and had similiar results.
BTW, NoAlox will burn when ignited with a match.
BTW, Purple Wire Nutes will burn when iginited with a match,
(it is the flammable Oxide Inhibitor which burns).

Sure wish we had a non-flammable Oxide Inhibitor.

Comments are welcome.

 

[George Stolz]

The content of your posts are unchanged, I just fixed the quotes to clarify who was saying what.

Anyone interested, if you click on the

buttons inside the quotes, it will take you to the original quote in the other thread.

I closed the other thread solely because it's confusing for people to participate in a conversation from six months ago.

And off you go...

 

[quogueelectric]

The content of your posts are unchanged, I just fixed the quotes to clarify who was saying what.

Anyone interested, if you click on the

buttons inside the quotes, it will take you to the original quote in the other thread.

I closed the other thread solely because it's confusing for people to participate in a conversation from six months ago.

And off you go...

I just read it as you closed it thank you for clarifying who said what. It contained the exact method that has been taught for years to anyone who would care to learn the original wire mfgs termination instructions. I learned this method in 1984 and for the last many years I have never seen a failure of this termination method. I have seen MANY alluminum failures but not how I was taught to terminate. I thank Glene for finding a hard copy of this long taught termination method exactly as I have explained it.

 

[Rockyd]

Nice link there cow. i went there and checked it out. For all those who only want to look at the proper procedure only, look here.

 

[iwire]

which substantiates everything I suggested just before the thread was closed.

No, it has little to do with it at all.

You had said this

I have seen idiot after idiot putting the product on after the connection had been made and this is why aluminum had so many fires is because of untrained monkeys installing it.

IMO that has little to do with it, the rash of problems with AL was before they changed the alloy that AL conductors are made of.

There was a problem with the old alloy and regardless of being a trained monkey or middle aged cow with proper paste applying techniques the termination could fail.

With the modern alloys you rarely see a failure.

 

[Kdog76]

Okay, this won't add anything to what was said, but I was trained to use "no-ox" as we called it on the AL terminations. Later on under a different contractor I was told to use the wire brush method. Then I did some looking up on my own, including some of these old posts...And, if you read the bottle of several of these products (at least the ones I've got on the truck) I think they all say to apply product with a wire brush to the ends. BTW any of you guys use the "go back and re-tighten three times" rule?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

BTW any of you guys use the "go back and re-tighten three times" rule?

Where did you find that rule? One of the biggest causes of problems with aluminum terminations is that they are made up too tight.

 

[glene77is]

The content of your posts are unchanged, I just fixed the quotes to clarify who was saying what.

Anyone interested, if you click on the

buttons inside the quotes, it will take you to the original quote in the other thread.

I closed the other thread solely because it's confusing for people to participate in a conversation from six months ago.

And off you go...

--------------------------------------
To: Moderator George Stolz
Thank you for helping!
--------------------------------------

 

[glene77is]

Where did you find that rule? One of the biggest causes of problems with aluminum terminations is that they are made up too tight.

Don,

I believe you are right about Over/ReTightening Alum joints.
The Alum should show signs of fracturing / cracking / creeping.
The co-efficient of elasticity and the co-efficient of elasticity
are not really suitable for joint-making.

I have experience with cracked service laterals.
Even the high-pressure crimp device is not always sufficient.
For small joints, I prefer the set-screw alloy connectors,
but I realize that even that is not really perfect solution.

 

[glene77is]

Okay, this won't add anything to what was said, but I was trained to use "no-ox" as we called it on the AL terminations. Later on under a different contractor I was told to use the wire brush method. Then I did some looking up on my own, including some of these old posts...And, if you read the bottle of several of these products (at least the ones I've got on the truck) I think they all say to apply product with a wire brush to the ends. BTW any of you guys use the "go back and re-tighten three times" rule?

KDA,

You are observant!
You are obviously a careful elecrical craftman.

The rationale is like this:
The wire brush is to be used to disrupt the Alum Anodizing effect
which occurs when Alum joins with Oxygen.

This Anodized effect extends several hundred molecules deep
into the surface, and will Not Wipe Off.
It must be abraded, scraping / scratching into the surface.
Preferably, at the same time,
we are pulling the NoOx grease directly onto the Alum surface.

Doing a houseful of these joints can be tedius.
Which is ,maybe, why many otherwise careful craftmen take short cuts.
Then, again, this information is on the scientific side,
and most craftmen don't get into that,
as it takes a background different from a good blue-collar experience.

Hope these comments are helpful, and encouraging.

 

[Kdog76]

Where did you find that rule? One of the biggest causes of problems with aluminum terminations is that they are made up too tight.

Well my 2nd last employer probably made it up. He'd make me do it on service conductors/feeders of a new service install. I live in Wisconsin where you can have quite a temperature difference between days / nights. I have terminated aluminum connections tightly during the day (60 degrees F) and come back next day after a cold night (40 or so degrees F). I would go back to retighten (as I was told) and find these connections to be loose. Now I know all of use a torque wrench to properly tighten terminations to the specs :wink:, but what can be done about these sorts of temp. differences causing connections to be loose?
Or, is it all in my head?

 

[quogueelectric]

No, it has little to do with it at all.

You had said this




IMO that has little to do with it, the rash of problems with AL was before they changed the alloy that AL conductors are made of.

There was a problem with the old alloy and regardless of being a trained monkey or middle aged cow with proper paste applying techniques the termination could fail.

With the modern alloys you rarely see a failure.

Yes but whatever you think there is still miles and miles of this wire out there in american homes. The fact is that you totally disreguarded the manufacturers instruction at the time and for that particular alloy.
It still has to be dealt with on a regular day to day basis. There is both a problem with the untrained monkeys and the middle aged Taxidea Taxus spouting improper termination techniques that cleans the aluminum of the high resistance material while guarding it from coming into contact with oxygen which is its enemy. Creating a termination of much lower resistance.

 

[iwire]

Yes but whatever you think there is still miles and miles of this wire out there in american homes.

No doubt, I did not say otherwise.

The fact is that you totally disreguarded the manufacturers instruction at the time and for that particular alloy.

I did not say that either, I said the problem has more to do with the alloy then the installer.

 

[jim dungar]

....but what can be done about these sorts of temp. differences causing connections to be loose?
Or, is it all in my head?

If done with a torque wrench, the connections only appear to be "too loose".
Any malleable material will experience an amount of cold flow (the material is squished out and moves away from pressure) but it is most noticeable with aluminum. Cold flow is why you can go back and continually tighten connections. Torque values take cold flow into account so that when the termination warms up, either from ambient or from loading, resulting in a proper connection.

 

[Rockyd]

Which leads to the next question -

Is there a chart, that adjusts torque value for temperature?

If so, what is baseline temperature?

 

[glene77is]

Glene77is, Wake Up! You mis-spelled something!

"The co-efficient of elasticity and the co-efficient of elasticity
are not really suitable for joint-making."

should read

"The co-efficient of Elasticity and the co-efficient of Restitution
are not really suitable for joint-making."

The first has to do with the ability to Stretch,
and the second has to do with the ability to reform/return to original shape.
The net effect is sometimes refered to as "Creep".

glene77is

 

[glene77is]

Jim,

I have found 'cold flow' to be a continuou process.
That is, after the 'proper' torque is applied, cold flow continues its natural course.

To support this view, I have this comment about the Spring Wire Nuts we all use:

One WireNut manufacturer writes that the proper torque for its spring wire nuts
is to twist until two turns of conductor wire are twisted visibly below the wire nut.

I say that this may require 10 twists of the wrist, maybe 12,
depending on how good the initial spring grip is,
and on how much radial twist your arm can achieve.
Solid #12 grips good, but Stranded #12 slips and grips less securely.

I have heard union guys say that 3 twists are all that is required.
They say they learned this in the union school.
I do believe their insructors mis-interpreted.

They should be 'torqueing' measured by the final result,
which would be several turns of wire showing beneath the wire nut.

This measuement against the final result is a "Relative" meaurement,
but I think it is going in the right direction.
I think the "spring" in the wirenut will cover the continued 'cold flow'.

What say you?

 

[Rockyd]

I have heard union guys say that 3 twists are all that is required.
They say they learned this in the union school.
I do believe their insructors mis-interpreted.

Ignore rumor, trust but verify (110.3{B}).

Union non-union makes no difference. It's just like a job, for a contractor. The worst contractor you ever worked for, and the best, may be the same one. It all depends on who the management is.

 

[glene77is]

Rocky,

Ignore rumor, trust but verify (110.3{B}).
... depends on who the management is.

I was not implying that was a truth, and I do verify.
It was just a single example that was given to me.
As I think you are suggesting, I have to be my own manager,
for that is one way an electrician stays alive for 44 years of this craft.

I verify that my wire nuts are twisted tight.
I get paid to fix the other guy's joints when they are loose.