sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
[ October 24, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]
[ October 24, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]
Oops...EMT offset on service
- Thread starter sfav8r
- Start date
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LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Have a magnet handy?
sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Does it matter? "Generally" made of steel and can also be aluminum.
sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Well, I looked up the UL file which is E60812. It verifies that the standard used for approval was DWTT. According to UL (very helpful folks there) The DWTT standard does include Rigid Conduit fittings and that die-cast zinc are one of the listed materials that can meet that standard.
The inspector originally said "just go get some of the OZ Gedney offsets, they're for rigid." Today I looked up the OZ gedney, and found them to be approved under the exact same DWTT standard.
I guess I don't have much chouce but to take all of the materials to the chief inspector and hope his ego isn't as involved as the district inspectors.
Well, I looked up the UL file which is E60812. It verifies that the standard used for approval was DWTT. According to UL (very helpful folks there) The DWTT standard does include Rigid Conduit fittings and that die-cast zinc are one of the listed materials that can meet that standard.
The inspector originally said "just go get some of the OZ Gedney offsets, they're for rigid." Today I looked up the OZ gedney, and found them to be approved under the exact same DWTT standard.
I guess I don't have much chouce but to take all of the materials to the chief inspector and hope his ego isn't as involved as the district inspectors.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
sfav8r,
You still may be looking at the wrong fittings over at OZ Gedney if the OZ Gedney nipple came back as DWTT.
sfav8r,
You still may be looking at the wrong fittings over at OZ Gedney if the OZ Gedney nipple came back as DWTT.
sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Al, thanks for the info.
The reason I referenced DWTT is because the fitting he wanted me to use was approved under DWTT.
There is definitely some confusion because rigid fittings could be approved under DWTT or DYIX. As it turns out, offset nipples (rigid or otherwise) are not under DYIX. They are only approved for the connection between boxes and are approved under DWWT as a connector.
Unfortunately when I look at the actual UL file numbers, they specify some things more clearly that others. Maybe I just don't know how to interpret what's there.
It seems to me that if the manufacturer has it listed in their catalog as rigid and the inspector can't prove otherwise it ought to be approved.
The Arlington engineer is going to email me something that he thinks may sway the inspector.
[ October 25, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]
Al, thanks for the info.
The reason I referenced DWTT is because the fitting he wanted me to use was approved under DWTT.
There is definitely some confusion because rigid fittings could be approved under DWTT or DYIX. As it turns out, offset nipples (rigid or otherwise) are not under DYIX. They are only approved for the connection between boxes and are approved under DWWT as a connector.
Unfortunately when I look at the actual UL file numbers, they specify some things more clearly that others. Maybe I just don't know how to interpret what's there.
It seems to me that if the manufacturer has it listed in their catalog as rigid and the inspector can't prove otherwise it ought to be approved.
The Arlington engineer is going to email me something that he thinks may sway the inspector.
[ October 25, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
I agree 100%!
I'd take the stance that you have hence proven your assertion, which is more than "swaying".
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Not to be a stick in the mud...because I agree, if you are right, then prove me wrong.
How much time did you spend proving you are right? You could have replaced all the offsets with "inspector approved" fittings in the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. If you are right and I believe you are, then your fight is right and will pay off in the long run or next job which ever comes first!
Not to be a stick in the mud...because I agree, if you are right, then prove me wrong.
How much time did you spend proving you are right? You could have replaced all the offsets with "inspector approved" fittings in the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. If you are right and I believe you are, then your fight is right and will pay off in the long run or next job which ever comes first!
sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
The other thing is, I didn't intend to spend this much time
I figured I would just fax over the catalog page and I'd be done.
Now, to go change the nipples, I'd have to notify all the tenants again and interupt the contractors that are doing the condo conversion. It's not that I won't do it, I guess after a few hundred "what the heck I'll just do it to get them off my back" you eventually dig in your heels when things get too ridiculous.
The really amazing part about this particular inspector, is the guy seems so reasonable (I know it's hard to believe after all the posts here). But he's real laid back, very professional and comes across as a very reasonable guy. Why he's making a federal case out of this darn thing is very puzzling.
More time than I care to admit, however, this particular installation is a bugger to swap out.
The other thing is, I didn't intend to spend this much time
I figured I would just fax over the catalog page and I'd be done.Now, to go change the nipples, I'd have to notify all the tenants again and interupt the contractors that are doing the condo conversion. It's not that I won't do it, I guess after a few hundred "what the heck I'll just do it to get them off my back" you eventually dig in your heels when things get too ridiculous.
The really amazing part about this particular inspector, is the guy seems so reasonable (I know it's hard to believe after all the posts here). But he's real laid back, very professional and comes across as a very reasonable guy. Why he's making a federal case out of this darn thing is very puzzling.
sfav8r
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Well, its like this. The final verdict is that the Arlington 6A5 has an AIC rating of 3000 and San Francisco requires an AIC rating of 10,000 on all conduit and fittings prior to a disconnect.
No, the amendments don't actually say that of course, they simply say it must be rigid. So now the powers that be say "EVEN IF the fitting is technically rigid, it doesn't meet code because the AIC rating is only 3000."
See how simple that is. If your already amended code doesn,t get the results you want, just add a few things as you go along.
If I sound sarcastic, please forgive me. I'm just sick and tired of the BS in this city.
So, I'll go spend 3 hours of my time to "correct" a perfectly good installation. Viva bureaucracy.
Well, its like this. The final verdict is that the Arlington 6A5 has an AIC rating of 3000 and San Francisco requires an AIC rating of 10,000 on all conduit and fittings prior to a disconnect.
No, the amendments don't actually say that of course, they simply say it must be rigid. So now the powers that be say "EVEN IF the fitting is technically rigid, it doesn't meet code because the AIC rating is only 3000."
See how simple that is. If your already amended code doesn,t get the results you want, just add a few things as you go along.
If I sound sarcastic, please forgive me. I'm just sick and tired of the BS in this city.
So, I'll go spend 3 hours of my time to "correct" a perfectly good installation. Viva bureaucracy.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Say it ain't so! This is the craziest thing I've ever heard in my life. But since you say San Francisco, I'm not surprised at all. :roll:
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
I suppose they set up an indpendent commision to investigate the AIC rating of die-cast offset nipples, set up many mock services, testing many samples, published the results for indendent review, convened committees, took random surveys, then finally made it law.
I suppose they set up an indpendent commision to investigate the AIC rating of die-cast offset nipples, set up many mock services, testing many samples, published the results for indendent review, convened committees, took random surveys, then finally made it law.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Was that nipples or niplets
Was that nipples or niplets
luke.stickney
Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Funny that he failed you an this. I just did the same installation for a two unit building on Treat Street in San Francisco and passed with die cast offset nipples. The only thing the inspector called me on was that I had separated my neutrals and grounds in the disconnect. I have always been of the understanding that you combined your neutrals and grounds in the first piece of equipment that your service enter into, which in my case was the three gang meter socket. But the inspector made me combine them all together in the disconnects in order to give me the green tag.
Remember, it's not about code, it's about what the inspector wants. And most of them have little to no experience other then taking a couple of classes and passing a test.
Funny that he failed you an this. I just did the same installation for a two unit building on Treat Street in San Francisco and passed with die cast offset nipples. The only thing the inspector called me on was that I had separated my neutrals and grounds in the disconnect. I have always been of the understanding that you combined your neutrals and grounds in the first piece of equipment that your service enter into, which in my case was the three gang meter socket. But the inspector made me combine them all together in the disconnects in order to give me the green tag.
Remember, it's not about code, it's about what the inspector wants. And most of them have little to no experience other then taking a couple of classes and passing a test.
luke.stickney
Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Who was your inspector?
Who was your inspector?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
Not a personal shot at you but sheesh.
There is a topic right there. Call it "Stupid statement of the day".
Not a personal shot at you but sheesh.
luke.stickney
Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
electricmanscott are you for real?!?
Just try to start arguing with an inspector and see where it gets you. Failing all your inspections! My point is, that it is better to make them happy then to piss them off arguing about how little about the code they actually know.
They all say how they enforce the code the same, but come on, if you really believe that then you are is green as it comes when it comes to working with inspectors.
When I was a journeyman electrician, I would have agreed with you 100%, I was about the code and the code only.
Now that I am a licensed contractor, I am about making the inspectors happy. It saves me money and time.
Give me a hard time if you wish, but if I were in the business of arguing with the inspectors, I would be loosing money and out of business.
electricmanscott are you for real?!?
Just try to start arguing with an inspector and see where it gets you. Failing all your inspections! My point is, that it is better to make them happy then to piss them off arguing about how little about the code they actually know.
They all say how they enforce the code the same, but come on, if you really believe that then you are is green as it comes when it comes to working with inspectors.
When I was a journeyman electrician, I would have agreed with you 100%, I was about the code and the code only.
Now that I am a licensed contractor, I am about making the inspectors happy. It saves me money and time.
Give me a hard time if you wish, but if I were in the business of arguing with the inspectors, I would be loosing money and out of business.
luke.stickney
Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
If anything my point is proven with this thread.
Two inspectors in San Francisco inspecting the same installation and I passed with die cast offset nipples and he didn't.
So tell me this, Is it about code or about making the inspectors happy when it comes to passing inspections?
If anything my point is proven with this thread.
Two inspectors in San Francisco inspecting the same installation and I passed with die cast offset nipples and he didn't.
So tell me this, Is it about code or about making the inspectors happy when it comes to passing inspections?
luke.stickney
Member
Re: Oops...EMT offset on service
I would even be willing to bet that it's the same inspector!
I would even be willing to bet that it's the same inspector!
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