OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

The problem is that if taken to its logical extreme (which is what will happen eventually), someone will have to do an arc flash calculation on every outlet in the building and put a sticker on it saying what level of PPE is required to plug in your coffee maker.

Not really. With lower capacity circuits a number of feet from the panel, the impedance of the conductors limits the amount of energy that is available to create the arc flash hazard.
Don

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by 69boss302:
The unfortunate thing is manufacturing companies never look at that. There are many other things you could blame for it, but it is always production driven.

I agree with you and IMO the most efficient way to get the old attitudes to change is money.

If following 70E costs a lot a company is much more likely to schedule a shut down than to try and do it live.

By the way, strictly speaking they are few instances where OSHA allows electricians working live PPE or not.

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by iwire:

By the way, strictly speaking they are few instances where OSHA allows electricians working live PPE or not.

Yes but it is to hard for people not familiar with electricity or even PPE to interpret and as most MBA's and upper managers do, if they don't see the numbers it means nothing. It has to be black or white to them. So it's all or nothing, that is why the other Bob keeps referring to the situation of wearing a moon suit to check a light switch. For someone that can't comprehend most of these things, they will come out and start to say well to just be safe we will require moon suits just to turn the light switch on.

There just seems to be no stopping the nonsense of it all. As I eluded to before, wearing safety PPE does not make you safe. But, that seems to be where OSHA and all the regs point to. I think the other Bob even said it, you have people that couldn't hold down a job so they got into the regulatory end and now they're an expert. So now people that have no clue what real work even is listening to them as experts telling them how someone else that has been working is not safe. It's all so confusing, but it all just keeps coming around.

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by 69boss302:
Yes but it is to hard for people not familiar with electricity or even PPE to interpret and as most MBA's and upper managers do, if they don't see the numbers it means nothing.

I agree, that is why OSHA mandates training of the workers.

If an upper manger says to me we can not shut that down I should be trained well enough to know to tell them that is unacceptable.

Hey I agree some of the rules seem a little over the top. I do work with electrical systems in the real world every day.

Again IMO the only way to get the message through to upper management is a large hit to the bottom line.

If that means a large OHSA fine so be it.

Workers comp costs will also drive us to safer work places.

I have worn the moon suit, I did not enjoy it, it was hot, hard to breath and hard to accomplish the task.

My hope is that eventually companies will realize shut downs are less expensive than the PPE and added time to do the task.

The company I work for now provides infer-red scans of electric equipment.

Our guys have to open the equipment under test, they are only going to take pictures they will make no adjustments or repairs, still they wear the moon suit. They don't like it but it is part of the job.

Who ever said our job would be easy?

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

This is the OSHA rule, make what you will of it.

29 CFR 1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Pretty straight forward.

 

[petersonra]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:

The problem is that if taken to its logical extreme (which is what will happen eventually), someone will have to do an arc flash calculation on every outlet in the building and put a sticker on it saying what level of PPE is required to plug in your coffee maker.

Not really. With lower capacity circuits a number of feet from the panel, the impedance of the conductors limits the amount of energy that is available to create the arc flash hazard.
Don

actually, though, someone would have to do the calcs and then go around and put stickers on the outlets saying they are ok to plug in your coffee pots.

I agree it would not be hard to make some kind of calculation that would show this is not likely to have an arc fault problem, but someone would have to go do it. and probably it would have to be done by a PE at X dollars per outlet.

The problem with a lot of this stuff is that things are constantly changing in most plants and calculations done last year are no longer worth anything as soon as you move something around a little. It will bring in a lot of money to the PE mafia if nothing else.

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by iwire:
I agree, that is why OSHA mandates training of the workers.

If an upper manger says to me we can not shut that down I should be trained well enough to know to tell them that is unacceptable.

Training the workers is good, but training the guy that sits there and says "Do the job or I'll find somebody who will". Is another thing.

I find myself and so do many of the other "workers" on the receiving end of the "unacceptable".

It's "unacceptable" to turn it off.
It's "unacceptable" to delay fixing it while you get the right PPE on.
It's "unacceptable" to refuse to do something if it's not safe.

I explained a situation I went through before in another thread. I won't bore you again. But even a lawyer does not help you if he's not going to get any money out of it. Labor boards and all the money in the world will not support you if you refuse to do a job and somebody else walks in and does it without the safety procedures and does not get hurt. It's always looked at as, since they didn't get hurt then they took adequate safety procedures, now why couldn't you have done that.

Fining companies and people money does not resolve the safety aspect. It only creates a means for somebody else to make money. As soon as it is seen that money can be made, there are a whole bunch more vultures in the mix also.

I to have spent time in a moon suit, even ones that have a way to plug an air supply to them to help and cool you. Still not comfortable, not easy to work in, and no fun.

 

[rbalex]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by iwire:
...
If following 70E costs a lot a company is much more likely to schedule a shut down than to try and do it live.
...

Despite first appearances, this nation is not run by lawyers but by accountants.

If you pull up some of the material from the initial 2004 (what was to be 2003) 70E ROP, you will find there was a Proposal to recognize 100cal/cm2 PPE. This was to allow working live ?safely? on systems with even higher available arc-flash. It was seriously considered.

What ultimately killed it was the simple statement, ?Loss of production is NOT an emergency.? The fact that it also overlooked blast hazard didn?t help it either.

I have a client that operates a continuous process facility (a refinery). A major part of the older existing distribution system is 4160V ungrounded. They do have ?run/spare? in all major services. They also have begun to experience a fairly high incidence of ground-faults in the old system ? but the operations (production) personnel won?t permit the faulted equipment to be shut down for repair even though they have an online spare readily available. Why? They reason that if the faulted equipment were shut down they would no longer have a ?spare? available. So they would prefer that the whole system ?crash and burn? because they could justify that to their accountants, but not the fact that they didn?t have a ?spare? available.

The general (although not entirely exclusive) philosophical bent of the 70E Tech Committee is to de-energize unless there is a probable greater hazard created and there is no other reasonable mitigation available. Simple inconvenience is NOT a ?hazard.?

The Committee is also attempting to develop both better (simpler) analytical procedures and a simple set of ?minimum? PPE requirements for Art 130. Give them time and also submit your own Proposals ? despite what you may think your views will be considered it is a consensus standard.

 

[petersonra]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

so what do we do in the 20 years it takes them to agree on something reasonable?

 

[rbalex]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

You propose what you think is or quit complaining about it.

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by rbalex:
You propose what you think is or quit complaining about it.

So this forum isn't for open discussion, it's for do your job or shut your mouth.

 

[rbalex]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

No you always have the right to discuss it and even complain about it. But it's kind of like voting - if you don't vote, while you still have right to complain, your credibility is greatly diminished.

It has taken me over ten years of fairly hard campaigning to get some of my views recognized and accepted and I'm not through yet. Anyone can do it though. But if someone only complains and hasn't actively taken part in the code-making process, in my opinion, it is simply whining.

BTW criticizing the process and the outcome in this forum is NOT actively participating in the code-making process.

 

[goodcode]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Amen

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Excuse me while I go get some cheese to enjoy with a little more of my whining .......

......The problem is the process. That's just the point. If you are putting in the time to do your job, take care of your family, you don't have time for the process.

It has taken me over ten years of fairly hard campaigning to get some of my views recognized and accepted and I'm not through yet.

This is what Bob is referring to I believe. The process is running while those of us that are out here keeping things going and just get told we are complaining. Some of us get fired if we don't do our jobs and complain. Even to perfectly legit entities. It comes down to if you had time to do that then you should of been doing something for the company.

This all reminds me of the engineers that go out and buy some fancy piece of equipment that is supposed make everything better, spend thousands of dollars and when they put the operator in front of it they look at the operator and say, "What do you mean you can't run this machine, your fired" Then the plant manager goes to the Human Resources guy and says get me somebody that can run this machine. "What do you mean the only one's that can run it are from the factory". We never talk to the one that has to run it. Things have changed on the production floor some and moved away from that, but it's actually the regulators that wont come up to date.

We have to go to them, they can't come out of their cushy little office to actually see anything. Nope it's the one's that aren't working that have the time to follow their rules and make it hard for the people that have been able to work.

I don't have a problem with the process either really, that's the way the world goes around. We have to deal with the situations we're in. Just don't tell me that I'm not allowed to say anything. It sounds to me like your the one that's whining because you can't listen to what someone else simply has to say.

I was also under the impression that there were quit a few CMP members that frequented this forum and I know Mike Holt himself does. No I don't think that I am trying to change the process I just think I can voice my complaints if I want.

OK, somebody just kicked me off my soap box, things to do so that China doesn't come over here and take over.

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by 69boss302:
Excuse me while I go get some cheese to enjoy with a little more of my whining .......

Hey we all gotta do it sometimes.

Glad to see you don't take things to serious here.

 

[rbalex]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

I acknowledge I may be a bit oversensitive having been on two CMPs,the 70E TC and one other NFPA TC. But I know the process works - even for the overworked. (Just maybe not as fast as I'd like ) I've just gone through the last six weeks of 10-14 hour days(two 16), 6-7 days a week and have about two or so more to go.

Personally, I figure anyone who has the time to come here and complain about something extensively probably has the time to get actively (and positively) involved in the process too.

Edit Add: If you find enough of my posts you'll see I complain about some of the results too. I have had one active battle going on for three code cycles already, but I fully expect to win it eventually as I already see the CMP beginning to "see the light."

[ August 12, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]

 

[realolman]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Goodcode, you simply are not reading my posts with an effort to understand.

I am the golfer who has eagled every hole without once getting in the rough for thirty years. Why would I be eager to change? Seems to me, someone truly interested in safety should be eager to find out what I have been doing. The problem with that is that it holds no prospect of money for outsiders.

In the last few years in the state where I live, special interest groups of contractors have been succesful in lobbying lawmakers with frightening stories and money. The lawmakers have then passed laws that insert these people, whom I would have never needed or wanted without the law, into my life.

A new industry was born; Filled with people who have the personal connections and/or the time and interest to follow the formation of regulations so that they can jump on the gravy train when it pulls from the station.

Now I am forced by law to deal with them, and to pay them. If I ignore them I am a lawbreaker. If I voice my objection, I am a cowboy, against safety. From my perspective, the point in all this is... without the law, I would never have needed, wanted, or paid for their "services"; and nothing bad would ever have happened to anyone... except the special interest groups. They would be forced to make their money based solely on their ability to provide a legitimate product to those who were willing to hire them like I do.

How can you call me a cowboy and make references to riding shotgun? I have a proven track record of safety. I don't know why they want your tray tables locked and your seats up. I do know something about my job. If PPE were as unobtrusive, unclumsy, comfortable, and as easy to maintain as the airline's requsts at landing, I would willingly use it and this discussion would not be occuring.

Let me state my position as simply as I can:

1. At the risk of my job, I would absolutely demand PPE that met my satisfaction to perform certain tasks.

2. Requiring PPE to open a "Hoffman" type enclosure to take a volt reading, check the state of a relay, check a display on a PLC or a servo driver, plug in a computer, or a similar troubleshooting effort goes too far and is ridiculous.

3. Last but not least, I thank God that I have not been injured. I often pray to Him many times during the day to "keep me safe" in this task or that.

While my blathering about my state's recent laws may not seem relevent, I believe that the basic interests and perspectives involved in that were the same as the interests involved in this discussion. How does one make relevant input to OSHA anyway?

I believe the NEC and NFPA should be a reference to help the electrician create as hazard free an installation as possible. I think they could do a much better job of making it more understandable. I never did think they were much concerned with an installation's efficiency or suitability for the application, and I believe that is appropriate. That is the electrician's/ engineer's job. I think they should stay out of the methods used to execute that installation and maintenance. I believe that is the electrician's backed by OSHA's job. If OSHA is protecting the workers more than the workers want to be protected, perhaps they need to re-evaluate;
And not be so condescending.

[ August 13, 2005, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: realolman ]

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by realolman:
I am the golfer who has eagled every hole without once getting in the rough for thirty years. Why would I be eager to change? Seems to me, someone truly interested in safety should be eager to find out what I have been doing.

What have you been doing?

You have been lucky period.

You are the definition of a cowboy.

You feel you are just so good that an accident can not happen to you.

Well that is a slap in the face to all the highly skilled workers that have been hurt or killed due to an accident.

Let me give you an example of one I know of, it was in a major trade magazine.

An electrician was removing the cover to a breaker enclosure, while doing so something exploded literally burning through the metal cover he had in front of his body and burning his abdomen, chest, hands, face and eyes.

It was found that someone left a tool in the enclosure that fell across the utility line side.

Was he unskilled?

Was it his fault?

How could he know there was a tool ready to fall into live parts?

Had he been wearing a moon suit he would not have been injured so badly.

At least you will retire soon so you will not train any more new guys in your unsafe practices.

[ August 13, 2005, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Here is the enclosure cover that I mentioned in my above post.

Here is a link to the full story

Misplaced Tools Can Lead to Tragedy for Maintenance Electricians

Then if you keep poking around you can sadly find more examples.
Anatomy of an electrical accident

 

[goodcode]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Thanks again realolman for another wonderful post!
It would be almost impossible to better illustrate how pompous, misinformed and disillusioned an electrical worker can get after years without an accident. The word is "complacency" and it is synonymous with "relolman."
Tiger Woods hits into the rough somtimes and once in a while does not make the cut. Your day is coming.
A better anaolgy than golf is motorcycle riding. There are only two types of riders: (1) those that have fallen and (2) those who are going to fall.
You are horribly misinformed about when these regulations came into effect. It was the patron saint of safety, one Mr. Richard Nixon who signed the OSHA Act in 1970. These regulations are not new. What is new is an industry based consensus standard providing prescriptive steps to work safe.
References made by you and others about individuals involved in codes and standards being after money are wrong, envious, short sighted and show just how misinformed you really are on this subject.
In closing I would like to thank you again for painting a truly fitting picture. It is a Picasso portraying the misinforemed "bullet-proof" electrical worker.
A suggestion for you is to contact an organization of which you are a member to lobby federal OSHA and NFPA committees to do away with safe electrical work practices. You must belong to some organization such as EA, IAEI, IEC, IEEE, IBEW, NECA or a local organization. But then I forgot , you do not have a need for these types of groups, your a scratch golfer.
I wish you well. I certainly hope your hitting streak continues. Your attitude will partially shield you from pain when your turn comes around. Your family however wont have such a shield.
I will no longer play a cat and mouse game with posts on this matter. Cops wear bullet proof vests, ironworkers wear fall protection with the new subpart R in 1926, public knowledge of lead and asbestos, (too many more to list) all of these have created safer workplaces. Yet many electrical workers shun safe work practices. Go ahead put your self in front of a bomb day in and day out. If you do not care enough about yourself or your family to work safe, then keep spining the revolver.
It is this type of ignorance, illustrated beautifully by you realolman, that keeps me and many others from playing a more active role on this site. Enjoy your complaining while you can, you never know when your number is going to come up on the arc flash wheel of fortune.
I will stick to the posts under NEC.
Have fun and work safe!