OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

[roger]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Bob, (Iwire) and I have talked about this in other than this forum, and I will say that I am guilty of opening enclosures and taking a measurement (voltage/current) with out any particular precautions, i.e. specific PPE.

The truth is, that when complacency comes to play, the danger is a covisitor, (new word?)
and experience is the leading cause of complacency.

I don't know where the line should be drawn, but check out this old thread for a reference.

I don't remember when I first thought that I had enough experience to think I was above a mishap, but I remember thinking it.

Roger

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

OK I tried to quit whining and I haven't been able to so I would like to mention a couple other things, which is more than likely beyond the mere process of correcting the NFPA 70E and OSHA.

Military experience.
While serving as an electricians mate in the Navy it was TABOO to work on anything energized period put your thinking cap on an troubleshoot de energized. You should know your equipment well enough to be able to isolate the problem and do resistance checks. Now in the "real" world you can't turn things off to troubleshoot because you'll slow down production. This is what bothers me.

In the Navy again, there were times that were realized that work on energized equipment was required. First and foremost electrical safety procedure, before you could work on anything live you had to have the Commanding Officers permission, SIGNED PAPERWORK. Now this put it on the CO for understanding the impact of delay's for safety procedures, understanding why it had to be worked on live, and understanding why you couldn't just turn it off. In the "real" world again it seems like we make requirements cloudy, purposely design loop holes for interpretations, and force decisions such as working on energized gear, of jamming NFPA 70E knowledge onto the worker, and say that he is supposed to tell the Management that he won't work on something withough PPE. I think it should be required for any Plant Manger to have to know about any energized work. He may start to realize that just the procedure of getting his permission will hold up production and the standard of turn things off will become a little more norm.

Perhaps now my position is understood a little more. I apologize to all for not following process but heck I like whining it gives me a reason to have a cheese party, I like the little RITZ crackers too

And I am guilty of accusing it all to be a money generator, I am not against safety, I am against using it as excuses though. I deal to often with since people can't get a certain job done, they will find a way to call it a safety issue and point fingers. Absolutely everything can be tied to a safety issue some way or other, when and where does the line get drawn?

Editted: a couple spots made no sense

[ August 13, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: 69boss302 ]

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by 69boss302:

In the Navy again, there were times that were realized that work on energized equipment was required. First and foremost electrical safety procedure, before you could work on anything live you had to have the Commanding Officers permission, SIGNED PAPERWORK. Now this put it on the CO for understanding the impact of delay's for safety procedures, understanding why it had to be worked on live, and understanding why you couldn't just turn it off. In the "real" world again it seems like we make requirements cloudy, purposely design loop holes for interpretations, and force decisions such as working on energized gear, of jamming NFPA 70E knowledge onto the worker, and say that he is supposed to tell the Management that he won't work on something withough PPE. I think it should be required for any Plant Manger to have to know about any energized work. He may start to realize that just the procedure of getting his permission will hold up production and the standard of turn things off will become a little more norm.

Company I work for policy is nothing is worked on hot.

I carry (the moon suit) in my service van and have to fill out a hot work form EVERY time I put it on

one of the first items on the form is why I have to work on it hot.

this form after it is filled out requires a signature from my supervisor,my safty director,the person requesting I work hot,the owner of the building I am working in

it also outlines the procedures I will follow and who will be present when work is done

I takes me about 45 minutes to completely fill out the form. and a day or two to get all the signatures.

I tell the custermer that in order for me to do the work he can let me turn things off and I will be done in X amount of time or we can do things hot and he can pay for the 45 minutes to fill out the paperwork, wait the two days for the signatures pay for another service tech to stand there and watch me do the work have someone there like himself stand there and watch me do the work and it will now take me X times two or X times three to do the job.

show them the bottom line and put it in writting bill is about 10 times more expencive for hot work.
90% of the time things get turned off
10% of the time he trys to get someone else to do it

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by marinesgt0411:
Show them the bottom line and put it in writting bill is about 10 times more expencive for hot work.
90% of the time things get turned off
10% of the time he trys to get someone else to do it

marinesgt0411, you have described the policy the company I work for has also.

It is really amazing how fast peoples opinions change once you ask them to sign a paper stating they must have the work done live.

 

[realolman]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Goodcode et al...What I was referring to was the implementation of the building code laws statewide in Pennsylvania, not OSHA or anything else. I was an electrician when Nixon was president. I am no cowboy, nor am I ignorant. It is completely illogical to claim someone without an accident doesn't know what he is doing.
I do not think I am too good to have an accident.
Please READ my posts

I have responded civilly to your nasty cracks about cowboys, airplane tray tables, riding shotgun, and being ignorant. You have not addressed anything that I posted correctly.

I too am tired of this nonsense. Companies will be glad to dress incompetents up in moon suits, at lower pay and more of them will let wrenches in the tops of panels. I have stated my opinions as simply as I can. I do not believe I am alone. I am sorry you don't get it.

[ August 14, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: realolman ]

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by realolman:
It is completely illogical to claim someone without an accident doesn't know what he is doing.

No one has said that you are not a skilled worker.

What is illogical is the belief that skill will prevent all accidents.

Good luck

 

[realolman]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

I am going to try to keep it shorter.

The golf thing was simply a pick up on the golf references goodcode made in his post, It was not intended to be an insult to anyone.


Getting burned in the manner you illustrate is horrible.
That could have happend to me, so I AM lucky.

What do you suppose the odds are of that incident happening?

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by realolman:
Getting burned in the manner you illustrate is horrible.
That could have happend to me, so I AM lucky.

What do you suppose the odds are of that incident happening?

Much less than the odds of me getting killed driving my truck to work. However I have no other choice, I must drive to work.

As far as hot work I am becoming much less willing to put myself at risk for other peoples convenience.

Why should I?

Would they?

Bob

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

marinesgt0411 and Bob:

I won't put in the quotes, but what you have said is absolutely outstanding. I commend you and your companies in doing things this way. This is exactly what I have been trying to say.

My problem though is and I'll admit I'm whining. I work for manufacturing companies. I have been with two different major manufacturing facilities, in two different states. I have addressed these things with upper management, talked about costs, the people that worked for me brought it up and when I told them the answer's I got they took it over my head. Guess what, I'm the type of supervisor that I commended them for taking it over my head, safety shouldn't have any limits as to whom to talk to. Now the end result though, both places, same thing. No moon suits, no fire retardant clothing for people that even work on "low" voltage stuff for troubleshooting, no OSHA coming in (which by the way were contacted). Nope, just well there hasn't been an accident, things are going OK, it cost's to much, gee if we give these guy's fire resistant uniforms we have to give everybody uniforms.

I know all the whistle blower laws and such like that, I also know that those that use them get in the paper and look real good at first, in the end though, it never works out. I have just been in the position of "get the job done" for way to long. I feel stuck and I also agree that an accident is coming. I said before I have been involved in a non electrical manufacturing death already, and electrical accidents, strike with out warning, with out anticipation and when it happens there is no time to think or react at the time of the arc flash, that is why the preparation is so important. But again, my whining, I have worked with companies that when you show them the #'s they just say, and can manage to find somebody that will do it cheaper, without the safety procedures, and they can just turn their head and say "not our problem". It's just like the "hacks" that the licensed electricians keep complaining about on other threads. There are people out there that will take the risk and end up looking like hero's and politics dictates that you don't mess with them.

My boss right now is one that demands there be a ground rod at every piece of machinery because it's "required" by the NEC. I have tried to have the grounding vs bonding discussion with him and he doesn't listen. Just "there will be a ground rod". I always make sure I still run the appropriate EGC to the equipment and just put in the ground rod to make him happy. He has been to the NEC classes and everything. There was even one project he wanted me to not run the EGC because of the cost, copper is just going up and up. I still ran it just didn't tell him. So now I'm at risk of not following directions and getting fired.

And I also think that putting all the sign's and stickers up is nonsense. Another thing that causes complacency, because as has been argued on other threads, just what is a calorie anyway? The people that are even supposed to use certain levels of PPE don't know what they are reading. And the calculations are crazy.

No I don't think there is any easy answer, and what ever it end's up taking it will take time, and unfortunately more injuries and lives. I just pray that it's not me, take all the precautions I can and I also pray for those I have gotten to know on this forum. There are alot of intelligent hard working people out there and things happen all to sudden.

[ August 14, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: 69boss302 ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

My problem though is and I'll admit I'm whining. I work for manufacturing companies.

In my area, compliance with electrical safe work rules as found in 70E is being driven by the large manufacturing firms, not the electricians or electrical contractors. Compliance with 70E is a prerequisite to work in their facilities. Hot work, other than troubleshooting requires a permit signed by the plant manager. If the permit is signed and there is an accident, the plant manager, and the project engineer will be fired and the EC will be banned from working for them. Needless to say, hot work permits are not signed. The plant electricians do a lot more than trouble shooting, and they have all been provided with 1000 volt gloves, work uniforms with an 8 cal/cm^2 rating, and a flash hood. This level 2 PPE covers most of the energized troubleshooting. They have also purchased level 4 coveralls and flash hoods for things like racking out 5kV breakers where there is greater arc flash hazard. We have level 2 coverall, hoods and voltage rated gloves for the cases where we are doing the troubleshooting.

Don

 

[petersonra]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

The goofy idea of firing the guy that signs a hot work permit if something goes wrong just tells me they have headed way off in the wrong direction. All that does is make the guys signing the permits expendable.

I think there is a middle ground you can take where you have precautions reasonable for the circumstances you are encountering. There are a lot of cases where it is near impossible (or at least very difficult) to troubleshoot certain things without having the power on.

Ideally, everything could be handled with the power off, but I don't know just how you would go about doing that for a lot of troubleshooting situations.

One problem you have is that a lot of power systems are not well designed for troubleshooting and repair. A little cleverness in how some of these systems are put together could reduce some of these problems.

It is very difficult for anyone to want to shut down the whole plant just to look around and try and figure out what is wrong. Its a lot easier to agree to a shutdown for repairs, but just to look around is a little different.

I don't agree with one of the posters who thinks he is immune to accidents due to his long service and skill. There is no guarantee that the guy that was in the switchgear before you did not leave a screwdriver precariously situated just waiting for you to open the door and fall onto something live and cause an arc.

Or you could be having a bad day, possibly because due to the expense of calculating the arc fault possibilities at each outlet and signing them properly, so they just turned off all the outlets. Now you are half asleep all the time, and once in a while forget something really important. Eventually that will catch up with you. So will the attitude that because you never had an accident you never will.

 

[peter d]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
In my area, compliance with electrical safe work rules as found in 70E is being driven by the large manufacturing firms, not the electricians or electrical contractors. Compliance with 70E is a prerequisite to work in their facilities.

Don, I think it's outstanding that these companies are taking the lead. I only wish I could work in an environment like that. Do you mind if I ask which particular industry in your area is taking such a proactive approach to 70E?

Unfortunately, it seems that it will take many years before this attitude will trickle down to the smallest of companies to the point where everyone will not do live work and will always use PPE.

 

[69boss302]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Exactly what you said Peter, you beat me to the post. I would also like to know, other than the real big ones. I know Dow Chemical is a good one, and I believe ALCOA. But even though as I said the companies I have worked for are major manufacturers, they ain't that big.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Bob,

The goofy idea of firing the guy that signs a hot work permit if something goes wrong just tells me they have headed way off in the wrong direction. All that does is make the guys signing the permits expendable.

Their point is that hot work, other than troubleshooting, it almost never permitted by the OSHA rules. That is just one way of driving the point home. Troubleshooting does not require this permit, but does require all of the PPE.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Peter,

Don, I think it's outstanding that these companies are taking the lead. I only wish I could work in an environment like that. Do you mind if I ask which particular industry in your area is taking such a proactive approach to 70E?

Some that I am aware of are, Dow, DuPont, Ford and GE (only one of these is in my area). I'm sure that there are more. I also have been told that some of the large ECs who have adopted a "no hot work policy" have had their workmans comp insurance rates drop by up to 30%. Some of these contractors have walked away from large clients who were still insisting that they work things hot.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Unfortunately, it seems that it will take many years before this attitude will trickle down to the smallest of companies to the point where everyone will not do live work and will always use PPE.

It will never trickle down, until the electricians stop taking the unnecessary risks that many take each day. Every comment that says I have done this for x years with out any problems makes it take that much longer.
Don

 

[realolman]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

I don't like being misrepresented

Let me state my position as simply as I can:

1. At the risk of my job, I would absolutely demand PPE that met my satisfaction to perform certain tasks.

2. Requiring PPE to open a "Hoffman" type enclosure to take a volt reading, check the state of a relay, check a display on a PLC or a servo driver, plug in a computer, or a similar troubleshooting effort goes too far and is ridiculous.

3. Last but not least, I thank God that I have not been injured. I often pray to Him many times during the day to "keep me safe" in this task or that.

 

[realolman]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

This is probably the only subject in the world where experience is of no value.

[ August 14, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: realolman ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

Originally posted by realolman:
I don't like being misrepresented

Let me state my position as simply as I can:

2. Requiring PPE to open a "Hoffman" type enclosure to take a volt reading, check the state of a relay, check a display on a PLC or a servo driver, plug in a computer, or a similar troubleshooting effort goes too far and is ridiculous.

Actually, i am not so sure that a certain amount of PPE is not a good idea all the time. It would cost almost nothing extra for companies to require electricians wear safety glasses and shoes. Nor would the cost of supplying less flammable uniforms be a huge additional expense since a lot of places supply uniforms anyway.

The idea of putting on gloves and a suit to check to see if a 24V relay is working correctly seems really excessive. I wonder if the overuse of these precautions will make them so commonplace that people start to rely on them rather than paying attention.

 

[iwire]

Re: OSHA enforces NFPA70E?

For basic work like that the company I work for expects my minimum PPE to be work boots, safety glasses, fire resistant clothing, and gloves.

I have a set of 600 volt gloves that I can work in although my hands will be sweat soaked.

It's not a big deal, I have all my safety gear in a big gym type bag.

I work for a large EC, the work this EC goes after usually involves big name GCs. These GCs and the clients they work for expect an exemplary safety record from any sub bidding on a project.

Our safety training, record and procedures are a selling point that helps.

They tell us it keeps our insurance rates down.

Whatever the companies motivation it is only good for us out in the field.