Outdoor Kitchen----Residential

[lifefloat]

I do not, to me that is likely to add to tripping. Ideally I will place a GFCI device at each point of use and not connect to the load side of them.

This makes reseting easier, troubleshooting easier and less likely to have tripping due to multiple appliances.


There is no reason why a person should be coming in contact with the branch circuit conductors.

Receptacles for the equipment in this installation are concealed inside the "island". They are not accessible without pulling the equipment out of the installation. A GFCI device would be impractical in this situation. Hence the reason I protected it at the source.

 

[lifefloat]

location is outside with no roof covering

So, am wondering what type boxes you are using in those locations ? O
One of those huge plastic kludge boxes sure would look great on an up scale outdoor kitchen counter ?:lol:

And the fridge outlet of course is WR/TR/in a WR box?

just curious.

Receptacles are concealed behind the equipment in the island. Standard industrial covers. No water ingress possible.

 

[lifefloat]

OK you have an outdoor kitchen and you suspect that the refrigerators are tripping your GFCI breaker.

Have you done anything to prove this ? Have you done any thoubleshooting on this problem?

The circuit to the refrigerator, is it run in PVC conduit or UF cable? How often does the breaker trip?

Two islands. Two circuits. One reefer per island. Less than 40' from source. PVC. THHN. Circuits are brand new. I can load the circuit up and no issues. Reefers are the only thing running at the moment so it is the only thing that could be causing the fault. It is a very intermittent fault. They will be running fine one moment and then HOURS later the circuit will sense a fault and open. I have not had a meter on the circuit at the time of a fault. The units are pulling at specified current.

The only thing I can come up with is that the units are expensive crap. The compressors must be the issue. Why it is intermittent I do not know.

 

[mgookin]

Both circuits or one of the two?
Are they both the same make & model refrigerator?

 

[kwired]

Are refrigerators intended for outdoor use?

Defrost cycle maybe initiated when it trips or some other feature that is not always on?

 

[lifefloat]

Both circuits or one of the two?
Are they both the same make & model refrigerator?

Both circuits. Same make and model. Both intermittent.

 

[lifefloat]

Are refrigerators intended for outdoor use?

Defrost cycle maybe initiated when it trips or some other feature that is not always on?

Not sure of the manufacturers intended use, like I said earlier high end stuff.

Reefer only. No freezer. Not sure if it has a defrost cycle, but that might make some sense of the issue if it did.

 

[mgookin]

Both circuits. Same make and model. Both intermittent.

I'd call the manufacturer and tell them what you're dealing with. They want it to work as much as you want it to work.

 

[iwire]

Some food for thought.

Structure. That which is built or constructed.

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.30 Number of Supplies. Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

How many circuits are running to this structure?

 

[growler]

Are refrigerators intended for outdoor use?

I would be calling the manufacturer and see if they have this problem at other locations.

I'm thinking that just condensation may be a problem. Lots of moisture in the air down there and all that's needed is a path to ground at some point.

 

[cpinetree]

Thank you Roger. There's something about outdoor receptacles that we don't have to do which the rest of the country does, and it escapes me right now. I thought it was the cover. Must be something else...
Self-testing maybe? Was that new for '14?

Lockable "Extra duty" in use covers is what you are thinking.
They are not required for residential in the '11 code.

 

[growler]

The only thing I can come up with is that the units are expensive crap. The compressors must be the issue. Why it is intermittent I do not know.

One day you will look back on this situation and laugh. We have all pulled out a little hair trying to figure out tripping GFCIs and Arc Faults.

If it's the compressors they would have this problem at other installations, both indoor and outdoor.

Look for reviews or comments on the product if the manufacurer will not give out information.
I doubt they built just two pieces of crap and sent them to you. They would have built many pieces of crap and people will talk about their problems.

 

[FionaZuppa]

One day you will look back on this situation and laugh. We have all pulled out a little hair trying to figure out tripping GFCIs and Arc Faults.

If it's the compressors they would have this problem at other installations, both indoor and outdoor.

Look for reviews or comments on the product if the manufacurer will not give out information.
I doubt they built just two pieces of crap and sent them to you. They would have built many pieces of crap and people will talk about their problems.

so many scenarios to have good data, many of the other sales may not use gfi, or the use of various types of gfi devices, etc.
a spike from the compressor turning off can cause a gfi to trip. amp clamp the egc or inline a amp meter there, see what it shows.

Are refrigerators intended for outdoor use?

perhaps hundreds of various makes out there.

this is mine
http://www.blazegrills.com/product/...ess-steel-compact-refrigerator-ul-approved-2/

 

[mgookin]

Lockable "Extra duty" in use covers is what you are thinking.
They are not required for residential in the '11 code.

Thanks neighbor!

Some food for thought.

How many circuits are running to this structure?

If it's in a screen enclosure which is attached to the house, it's all one structure. Sort of like a covered porch but the roof is screen. Still one building.

 

[iwire]

If it's in a screen enclosure which is attached to the house, it's all one structure. Sort of like a covered porch but the roof is screen. Still one building.

I agree, if is its attached.

Those screen enclosures are a big thing down there it seems? I cant say I have ever seen one around a pool here.



How about if it looks something like this?

 

[qcroanoke]

If it's in a screen enclosure which is attached to the house, it's all one structure. Sort of like a covered porch but the roof is screen. Still one building.

From the original post: I have a client who recently has two freestanding islands built outside that contain outdoor rated appliances. All high end stuff. Smoker, BBQ, food warmer, hot plate, and refrigerators.

The location is outside with no roof covering and is about 20' from the swimming pool.

 

[FionaZuppa]

How about if it looks something like this?

i will say the AHJ has final word, and kitchens like this can have more than one BC feeding it. my personal outdoor kitchen is like this pic and has multiple BC's coming to it, one to feed some outlets, another to feed a low amp fridge which is also tapped to feed specified ceiling fans w/ lights. AHJ gave approval.

 

[iwire]

i will say the AHJ has final word, and kitchens like this can have more than one BC feeding it. my personal outdoor kitchen is like this pic and has multiple BC's coming to it, one to feed some outlets, another to feed a low amp fridge which is also tapped to feed specified ceiling fans w/ lights. AHJ gave approval.

Well given your description the AHJ did not interpret the code they simply ignored it.

Clearly the kitchen is built or constructed.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Well given your description the AHJ did not interpret the code they simply ignored it.

Clearly the kitchen is built or constructed.

i agree, but, in my case, i have a big patio cover (fully attached to home, permanent), and the kitchen (a "L" shaped island about 12ft on each side) is attached to the patio cover structure. it also has a 10ft ground rod inside the "structure" bonded to egc and the metal framing , AND (AND), its screwed down to a ufer

does a outdoor kitchen really need a disco/panel for a feeder if the kitchen needs say two 20A and one 15A BC ? seems silly.

 

[iwire]

No need to explain, the NEC does not seem to apply at my home either.