Outdoor service panels versus indoor

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hbiss said:
So, what I'm hearing is the reason for locating the panel outside is a greedy EC or GC and it's easy. Not real good reasons. If the NEC was doing it's job instead of worrying about arc fault this would go away.

-Hal
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I would prefer an interior panel myself but imo an NEC requirement banning ext panels should never see the light of day. It's a decision that should be left solely to whoever is paying for the installation.

The argument too about corrosion, insects etc doesn't really hold water imo b/c the code already has requirements for ext panels that when followed effectively mitigates those concerns for most of those installations.


Should we ban mh disconnects too? After all, they have a few spaces in them that make sp breakers/ extra bc's outside a possibility.
 
One thing to consider, in the godforsaken parts of the country like the Northeast where frost is a consideration, & basements are common, makes for a lot more panel placement options then here where basements are almost as rare as a honest politician.
 
user 100 said:
I would prefer an interior panel myself but imo an NEC requirement banning ext panels should never see the light of day. It's a decision that should be left solely to whoever is paying for the installation.

The argument too about corrosion, insects etc doesn't really hold water imo b/c the code already has requirements for ext panels that when followed effectively mitigates those concerns for most of those installations.
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What effectively mitigates? An NEMA 5R with the little lip in the front of the top and a lift up cover? We have to replace meter sockets every 10-15 years here because water runs INSIDE and rots it out from the inside. Ever see pictures of outdoor panels with rats, mice even a rattler inside?

I'm sick of hearing that we should leave common sense up to whoever is paying for the installation. No basement? Bull! Put it in the garage or design space in for a utility room. Electrical shouldn't be an afterthought like most cheap GCs seem to think. I'm a firm believer that without codes there would be only one receptacle in a room and probably no indoor plumbing. :rant:

-Hal
 
A lot of those in California. Even if the service runs to a garage wall it's not uncommon for the panel to be on the outside. MAYBE tolerable in some climates, but I would hate to deal with that in a climate where there's serious winter weather.

Having to navigate in the dark with rain/ice/snow to reset a tripped GFCI would get old real quick.
 
hbiss said:
I'm sick of hearing that we should leave common sense up to whoever is paying for the installation. No basement? Bull! Put it in the garage or design space in for a utility room. Electrical shouldn't be an afterthought like most cheap GCs seem to think. I'm a firm believer that without codes there would be only one receptacle in a room and probably no indoor plumbing. :rant:

-Hal
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What I said has nothing to do with lack of codes/ desire for abolishing them- instead that it should be left up to who is paying for it. If the GC saves money by getting someone who does it that way, more power to him.

Just b/c somebody left an open KO/didn't leave weep holes and/or care to use ductseal and mice/water/snakes got in or corrosion happened doesn't mean the design is defective and should be banned- you're simply dealing with a bad installation. I will admit that rust can be eventually be an issue on the outside and edges of 3R equipment, but that is easily prevented with a good coat of paint.

Yes there are awful examples, but thats with anything- there have been interior panels literally destroyed by leaking plumbing, or the way some people keep house-dust, grease, roaches, mice, cat/dog pee, and thats not counting the ones that have the chest of drawers, the bed, boxes of whatever/assorted junk obstructing them that has to be moved.

Often its not possible w/ remodels to relocate the panel- customers don't like having dry wall damaged or footing the bill to extend/ install ,more stuff -its easier and cheaper (most of the time) to turn the older small panel into JB and run everything to new setup a couple of feet away. And as ggunn alluded to earlier here in Tx most houses don't have basements- slab for new / pier and beam-block and base for old.
 
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hbiss said:
That right there is the only reason this kind of stuff happens.

-Hal
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So they have no right to save money and customers have no right to choose a different type of panel for ckt distribution on their own property, which btw, if installed correctly, is perfectly safe and code approved?:D

You are right that cheapsters do make things less safe by cutting corners, but again "if installed correctly"..............

Gonna agree to disagree.:)
 
Not sure anyone has mentioned that the outdoor disconnect is better for first responders who need to shut down the power.

The NEC is agnostic on this, which is the way it should be. As has been amply proven in this thread, different local conditions call for different preferences.
 
jaggedben said:
Not sure anyone has mentioned that the outdoor disconnect is better for first responders who need to shut down the power.
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Even this is regional.
In my city, the Fire Department does not perform any type of 'disconnect', they call for the POCO. They have methods and procedures for dealing with 'energized' structures.They feel they are not qualified in determining whether or not a disconnect actually removes all sources of power to the structure.
 
Sounds like there are folks who would prefer that manufacturers and NRTLs reject the notion of having NEMA 3R panel-board enclosures available and that all OCPDs be installed inside a building. Those people should submit a public input to NFPA to change the NEC. Meanwhile the NEC provides for panel-boards to be located in 3R enclosures and it is up to the designer to decide where, when, and whether these installations are appropriate.

Oh, and in many cases, cost is a major factor in deciding what and how to proceed with an installation. It's not always a matter of greed but rather a practical matter of resources vs. needs.
 
petersonra said:
I sort of like the idea of an outside disconnect. Not thrilled with having the actual branch circuit breakers outside though.
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On a nice day it doesn't bother me much but when it's raining I prefer the branch circuit breakers to be inside.

We have very few panels on the outside of homes, mostly basements and garages.
 
jim dungar said:
I seem to recall the primary failure mode was insects.
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user 100 said:
I would prefer an interior panel myself but imo an NEC requirement banning ext panels should never see the light of day. It's a decision that should be left solely to whoever is paying for the installation.

The argument too about corrosion, insects etc doesn't really hold water imo b/c the code already has requirements for ext panels that when followed effectively mitigates those concerns for most of those installations.


Should we ban mh disconnects too? After all, they have a few spaces in them that make sp breakers/ extra bc's outside a possibility.
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I install a lot of 3R loadcenters mostly at grain storage facilities and other agriculture related applications.


3R cabinets don't keep insects out. Had many service calls where it was found a breaker wasn't working, some less then a year old even, take it out blow compressed air through the arc chutes and watch dead bugs come out. Reinstall breaker and it works again.

Been more recently considering NEMA 12 cabinets in more places then I used to. A lot of grain storage facilities have grown over the years and essentially need a 480 volt supply system, the panels we order for those area always NEMA 12, remove the drain screws and it is now a NEMA 3, but still pretty sealed up compared to the cheap "3R loadcenters". None of those seem to have as much issue with insects - unless the owner leaves the door open.

Raceways entering the top of any enclosure outdoors are subject to condensation draining into the enclosure, my advice from past experiences is install those top entries so they are not directly over items you don't want that condensation to drain onto.

Center factory hub located over top of a main breaker - not such a good idea even though it is convenient. Put a myers hub at the corner of the cabinet so moisture will run down the "wiring channel" instead of right onto the panelboard, and make wires slope away from breakers (only needs to be a slight slope) so any water on them doesn't run to the breaker.
 
I put one on just the other day. Old load center was in the Kitchen (covered up by refrigerator). General said cost had to be rockbottom. I put a meter combo with 16 spaces on the outside at kitchen. A few weeks later the GC showed up and showed out because I had not put it back in the kitchen 'where it was supposed to be".. I said, IT's code compliant, now write my check and saved you a couple of hundred. Gonna do another one this way in just a few days. will save about 15' of 4/0 SER and an indoor load center.
 
hbiss said:
Sure, while you and the GC are patting each other on the back where was the homeowner?

I wouldn't buy a house with an outdoor panel.

-Hal
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You are really coming across as a ....

Get over yourself, you are not the arbitrator of what is the right way and wrong way to do things.
 
hbiss said:
Sure, while you and the GC are patting each other on the back where was the homeowner?

I wouldn't buy a house with an outdoor panel.

-Hal
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iwire said:
You are really coming across as a ....

Get over yourself, you are not the arbitrator of what is the right way and wrong way to do things.
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I don't know Iwire, hbiss's opinion may seem a little strong but I think it may be shared by many potential home buyers. Sure they may save a couple of hunred on the install but may lose a good deal on resale value.

In an area where they are used to the outdoor panel it may not affect the home value but in some areas (like here) I'm thinking it would not be a wise choice.
 
growler said:
I don't know Iwire, hbiss's opinion may seem a little strong but I think it may be shared by many potential home buyers. Sure they may save a couple of hunred on the install but may lose a good deal on resale value.

In an area where they are used to the outdoor panel it may not affect the home value but in some areas (like here) I'm thinking it would not be a wise choice.
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If it is an all in one with the meter in it, it could go unnoticed though, at the time of purchase, just like it could go unnoticed if it is behind the refrigerator.

Many do forget that the average home buyer is not an electrician and may not notice this kind of thing. But once they do notice it what you mentioned can very well be true. How many trips is a person used to making to reset a breaker or change a fuse may have some impact on what they think as well. How many false trips AFCI's may have could impact that, we read a lot about that here but I haven't had a lot of trouble with that, but I also haven't installed a lot of them either. Most of the new housing I have done was all before AFCI requirements were completely adopted here, which was when they finally adopted the 2008 NEC, but that actually happened in maybe 2010. Otherwise outside of AFCI problems I think it is pretty rare to have to reset a breaker in a house most cases where new wiring by a competent installer is involved. If one lived in an older home with problems in the wiring, they may reset things often and this is something they think about.
 
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